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The official Cleveland Indians thread [Post Tribe Stuff Here]

  • This board needs a thread for the state's real baseball team.

    I love Carlos Santana. I miss Kenny Loften. It'll always be the Jake to me. The Reds can bite me.

    Feel free to add any delusional optimism you may have, reflect on the glory days, b*tch and moan, or say random bad things about the Reds, Yankees, White Sox or anyone else you see fit.

    Go Tribe!!

    This post has been edited 6 times, most recently by tired 9 months ago

  • callen05

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    Time and change will surely (truly) show How firm thy friendship ... OHIO!

  • Baximus

    Lower win total this season: The Indians or my Pirates?

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    I miss my Kate Upton Picture

  • C'mon man ... the state's "real" baseball team. And I had just started rooting for them again since I hadn't been annoyed by their bandwagon-jumping fans lately. I know a lot of you guys are diehard Tribe fans, but you have to admit you led the world in bandwagon jumpers in the mid-90's after The Jake was built. When I was growing up in Ohio, you couldn't find an Indians fan (and the attendance reflected it). Then all of a sudden you guys were coming out of the woodwork.

    The Reds will always be Ohio's best baseball team from an historical perspective. Cincinnati was home to arguably the best (more-accurately the second-best behind the Yankees of the late 20's) baseball team ever with the Big Red Machine in 1975 and '76. Also, the Reds have five World Series championships to the Indians' one.

    I have a soft spot for you guys because Justin Masterson went to my high school (although I'm 9 years older than him) and we played for the same baseball coach who just retired last year. I also like some of your other players like Choo, Sizemore (when he's healthy) and Santana. You guys seriously lack pitching, but hopefully Masterson can be a nice No. 3 in the rotation for years to come.

  • Heater

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  • Us die-hards know how few of us there are, so I would kill for those bandwagon fans back. And I'm just having a little fun. You need to fabricate fun when your goal is 70 wins.

    To bring this thread a bit of credibility I'm going to share the story of my first Tribe game, something that actually feels a little more thread worthy.

    It was in '96 and I was 7. My uncle surprised me at home on a weeknight with two tickets for my dad and I. I went ape sh*t. I probably did 40 laps around the house. We sat in the first row of the top deck. From that angle I thought every pop up was going to be a home run. I'm pretty sure Belle was in Chicago already, and Kenny Loften in Atlanta. How crushed I was when he left that first time. Anyway, the highlight of the day was probably a scorcher down the right field line that resulted in a Jeremy Burnitz triple. That was the best thing because we ended up losing to the Brewers (still in the AL) that day. To this day I will punch Jose Valentine in the head for hitting a home run that day. It was still an awesome experience and one of my treasured memories with my father.

    The Reds are okay, it's not their fault we didn't want Brandon Phillips.

  • callen05

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    Time and change will surely (truly) show How firm thy friendship ... OHIO!

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  • And by tradition, Dave, you mean they happened to be good when you were growing up with the Big Red Machine and all. When you get past the 70's the Indians were clearly the better franchise. But I don't even know when the Reds were created. But the pre-70s Indians were a great franchise. I would bet the All-Indian team would blow the All-Red team outa the water.

  • beesebuck707 said... (original post)

    And by tradition, Dave, you mean they happened to be good when you were growing up with the Big Red Machine and all. When you get past the 70's the Indians were clearly the better franchise. But I don't even know when the Reds were created. But the pre-70s Indians were a great franchise. I would bet the All-Indian team would blow the All-Red team outa the water.

    I would disagree on the "past the 70's" part. The Reds were much-better than the Tribe in the 80's as well. The Reds had the best record in baseball in 1981 (strike-shortened year) and had several second-place finishes in the NL West in the decade as well. Something like five-straight when Rose was managing. But I wouldn't bet on it. (I'll be here all week.) Then the Reds won the World Series championship in 1990, which obviously trumps what the Indians did in '95 and '97 as runners-up. And now the Reds are coming off an NL Central title and appear poised for a repeat.

    The Indians were definitely much better than the Reds from 1996-07 or so, but overall since the end of the 70's it's pretty much a wash.

  • The Indians would beat a Reds all-time team? Huh?

    The Indians have a handful of guys in the baseball Hall of Fame. Here's my short list of their all-time greats: P Cy Young, OF Tris Speaker, P Bob Feller, SS Lou Boudreau, P Early Wynn, P Bob Lemon, OF Larry Doby and OF Earl Averill.

    In terms of the contemporary years, they have had some guys who have enjoyed great careers but only spent a portion of their time with the Indians like 2B Robbie Alomar, SS Omar Vizquel, OF Manny Ramirez, 1B-DH Jim Thome and OF Albert Belle.

    They would be in line with some of the Reds nice contemporary players like OF Ken Griffey Jr., OF Eric Davis and some others of that ilk. I don't know if many of them would make the all-time team for either franchise. Depends how you view it.

    OK, the Reds who I consider as all-time greats: C Johnny Bench, 2B Joe Morgan, 1B Tony Perez, 3B-OF Pete Rose, SS Davey Concepcion, C Ernie Lombardi, 1B Ted Kluszewski, OF Frank Robinson, OF Edd Roush, P Eppa Rixey, SS Barry Larkin and P Paul Derringer.

    Maybe I'm missing a few all-time greats on both sides, I dunno. That Indians list is nice. I just don't see the depth I see on the Reds list. I'd probably give the pitching edge to the Tribe with, in particular, Cy Young and Bob Feller. Hitting and defense edge goes to Reds.

    In terms of World Series, the Reds have been in nine and won five. The Indians have been in five and won two.

    Both have great histories, no doubt.

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  • And let me clarify: I don't mean to flame the Indians or their fans. I love Progressive Field (liked it better when it was the Jake ... LOL). Baseball in this state is better when both teams are good. There was excitement in 1995 when we had the potential for an I-71 series when both made the LCS.

    Hey, I can remember our guy Jay Crawford going on the Channel 10 news it seemed like every night in 1995 and starting the sports with "Well, we did it again ..." whenever the Indians would rally with a 6-run ninth for a 12-11 win.

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  • Carlos Santana is a baller. We are going to get some great prospects for him when he's traded right before he reaches free agency!

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  • callen05

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    Time and change will surely (truly) show How firm thy friendship ... OHIO!

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  • tired

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    lounge fly

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  • Heater

    SteveHelwagen said... (original post)

    The Indians would beat a Reds all-time team? Huh?

    The Indians have a handful of guys in the baseball Hall of Fame. Here's my short list of their all-time greats: P Cy Young, OF Tris Speaker, P Bob Feller, SS Lou Boudreau, P Early Wynn, P Bob Lemon, OF Larry Doby and OF Earl Averill.

    In terms of the contemporary years, they have had some guys who have enjoyed great careers but only spent a portion of their time with the Indians like 2B Robbie Alomar, SS Omar Vizquel, OF Manny Ramirez, 1B-DH Jim Thome and OF Albert Belle.

    They would be in line with some of the Reds nice contemporary players like OF Ken Griffey Jr., OF Eric Davis and some others of that ilk. I don't know if many of them would make the all-time team for either franchise. Depends how you view it.

    OK, the Reds who I consider as all-time greats: C Johnny Bench, 2B Joe Morgan, 1B Tony Perez, 3B-OF Pete Rose, SS Davey Concepcion, C Ernie Lombardi, 1B Ted Kluszewski, OF Frank Robinson, OF Edd Roush, P Eppa Rixey, SS Barry Larkin and P Paul Derringer.

    Maybe I'm missing a few all-time greats on both sides, I dunno. That Indians list is nice. I just don't see the depth I see on the Reds list. I'd probably give the pitching edge to the Tribe with, in particular, Cy Young and Bob Feller. Hitting and defense edge goes to Reds.

    In terms of World Series, the Reds have been in nine and won five. The Indians have been in five and won two.

    Both have great histories, no doubt.

    Steve...you're not looking deep enough, imo. For instance, you brushed over a lot of HoFers in there...Napoleon Lajoie, a career .338 hitter and so popular that the team was renamed the Naps when he was player/manager.

    On the subject of contemporary players, spending a portion of their time in one uniform is a part of the free agent world we live in. I would argue that Jim Thome, who spent 10 of his 20 years in the bigs on the Indians roster is a guy that is a career Indian. In fact, if you spend 50% or more of your career in one uni, then you're a career player there, for this roster, I think.

    Joe Morgan only spent 8 of 22 years in a Reds uniform, but his best years were in Cincy and for logic's sake, he is a Red.

    Albert Belle spent 8 of his 12 years in the majors in C-town.

    Manny Ramirez is an interesting case though...8 years in Cleveland and 7 in Beantown. I'll give him C-town all-time credit. I would also throw in Shoeless Joe Jackson, who spent 5-1/2 years in Cleveland and the same amount in Chi-town. His better years were in Cleveland though. The Grey Eagle, Tris Speaker, is also an all-time, all-time and spent half his career as a Tribesman. Also, Cy Young is inducted in the HoF in a Boston uni, but over half o fhis career wins (267 out of 511) came in a Cleveland uniform. However, Gaylord Perry, even though he won a Cy Young Award in C-town, only spent 3-1/2 seasons in Cleveland and not a "career" Indian. As a sidenote, it's pretty amazing though that two of the premier current hurlers in C.C. Sabathia (157 wins and a CYA) and Cliff Lee (103 wins and a CYA) couldn't even sniff the pitching roster of the all-time Tribe team.

    ----

    Taking it a little further, the Reds have 8 players listed at the official HoF site with the Reds as their primary team...Bench, Lombardi, McKechnie (manager), Morgan, Perez, Rixey, Robinson, Roush.

    That's two catchers...one will have to be your DH. Add in Larkin and Rose.

    C - Bench ("Bench"-mark for C position, HoF)
    1B - Perez (27th all time in RBI, HoF)
    2B - Morgan (33rd all time in Runs/13th in SBs, HoF)
    3B - Rose (All-time hits leader, should be HoF)
    SS - Larkin (.295 BA, will be in the HoF)
    OF - Robinson (586 HR, HoF)
    OF - Roush (.323 BA, HoF)
    OF - George Foster? Ken Griffey? Dave Parker? Eric Davis?
    DH - Lombardi (.306 BA, HoF)

    SP - Rixey (179 wins, HoF)
    SP - Gullett (109 wins)
    SP - Rijo (116 wins)
    SP - Soto (100 wins)
    SP - Derringer (223 wins)

    RP - Danny Graves (182 saves, 54th all-time)
    RP - John Franco (424 saves, HoF...only spent 6 of 21 seasons with Reds)

    Looking at just the starting line-up, it's pretty strong, but the third outfield position is not a "career" Red, as Steve's guidelines outlined earlier. John Franco as well is not a career Red, but relief pitchers are generally nomads, so I can make that exception (as I did with Jose Mesa and Doug Jones below...though they were much closer to the 50% level than Franco).

    Juggle the Reds pitching roster around if you want...but you will not come close to matching the Indians 6 HoF pitchers. (No, you don't get to include Tom Seaver, he had less than 25% of his total wins while in southern Ohio.)

    -------

    Conversely, the HoF has 13 Hall of Famers with Cleveland as their primary team...Averill, Boudreau, Burkett, Coveleski, Doby, Feller, Flick, Joss, Lajoie, Lemon. Sewell, Speaker, Wynn.

    I'd be willing to trot out this team and take my chances...

    C Sandy Alomar (6 time All-Star, RoY, GG)
    1B Jim Thome (589 HR, 17th in all-time OPS, future HoF)
    2B Nap Lajoie (.338 BA, HoF)
    SS Lou Boudreau (.295 BA, led SS in Fld% 10 straight years, HoF)
    3B Joe Sewell (.312 BA, HoF)
    CF Tris Speaker(.345 BA, HoF)
    RF Albert Belle (.295 BA, 5 Silver Sluggers in 12 years...would be HoF if not for injury/attitude)
    LF Earl Averill (.318 BA, HoF)
    DH Manny Ramirez (.312 BA, 555 HR, 9th all-time in OPS, future HoF?)

    SP Bob Feller (HoF, Named greatest right-handed pitcher of first half of 20th Century)
    SP Addie Joss (HoF, 160 wins in 9 seasons, 1.89 ERA)
    SP Stan Coveleski (HoF, 215 wins, 2,89 ERA)
    SP Early Wynn (HoF, 300 wins)
    SP Cy Young (HoF, 511 wins, named some sort of award after him or something)

    RP Doug Jones (303 saves, 20th all-time)
    RP Jose Mesa (321 saves, 13th all-time)
    RP Bob Lemon (HoF, 200+ wins)

    My guess is that the CLEARLY superior pitching by the Indians would dominate the day and the weaker pitching by the Reds would let the Indians hitters put some crooked numbers up on the ol' scoreboard.

    Best of 7 series: Cleveland 4 - Cincinnati 2

    This post has been edited 3 times, most recently by Heater 3 years ago

    National President of the Sky is NOT Falling Club

  • hobe2112

    I'm still very cautiously optimistic with the tribe this year. So far, in the two that they've won, they have been playing good baseball and manufacturing runs. Get him on, over, and in. Everyone wants to see homeruns, but the correct timing on a steal, sac bunt, or sac fly is a thing of beauty. Hopefully the starting five can keep us in the game for at least 6 or 7, because I really think the bullpen will be one of they're stronger parts.

    Grudgingly, I do agree with Dbids when he talked about all the fair weather fans that miraculously were there in the 90's. It always drove me nuts that suddenly everyone was yelling go tribe. Where were they in the 80's when you could sit anywhere in municipal stadium that you wanted? Hell, the stadium staff practically encouraged you to come closer to the field so it appeared that there were more poeple at the games!

    It does break my heart that they've dropped off so sharply, but I put a lot of that blame on the ownership. I swear Dick Jacobs would be rolling in his grave if he knew what was happening. Hopefully we can start winning with a smaller payroll like the Twins have. We'll see...

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  • Heater

    hobe2112 said... (original post)

    I'm still very cautiously optimistic with the tribe this year. So far, in the two that they've won, they have been playing good baseball and manufacturing runs. Get him on, over, and in. Everyone wants to see homeruns, but the correct timing on a steal, sac bunt, or sac fly is a thing of beauty. Hopefully the starting five can keep us in the game for at least 6 or 7, because I really think the bullpen will be one of they're stronger parts.

    Grudgingly, I do agree with Dbids when he talked about all the fair weather fans that miraculously were there in the 90's. It always drove me nuts that suddenly everyone was yelling go tribe. Where were they in the 80's when you could sit anywhere in municipal stadium that you wanted? Hell, the stadium staff practically encouraged you to come closer to the field so it appeared that there were more poeple at the games!

    It does break my heart that they've dropped off so sharply, but I put a lot of that blame on the ownership. I swear Dick Jacobs would be rolling in his grave if he knew what was happening. Hopefully we can start winning with a smaller payroll like the Twins have. We'll see...

    I was there in the 80s...heck, I took a job as an usher in '89 just so I could watch the games (and I got paid to do it!!)

    But, my Air Force job has kept me away from Ohio since I left Wright-Patterson in 1997.

    Still, I am a HUGE Tribe fan.

    National President of the Sky is NOT Falling Club

  • I cheered for the Reds and the Tribe until the early 90's. When I went to college I found the band wagon Clevelanders to be to over bearing and really turned me off to all Cleveland sports. I am now happy to watch a Tribe game (flipped it over last night as I enjoyed watching them beat the Sox) and not have to hear from all the "fans" that no longer care. Plus, I enjoy watching young talent come through organizations and the Tribe have a lot of young talent. Not as much as the Reds but they do have some guys that are enjoyable to watch. However, when Choo is your best player you are probably not looking at a 75 win season.

  • callen05

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    Time and change will surely (truly) show How firm thy friendship ... OHIO!

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  • tired

    beesebuck707 said... (original post)

    . However, when Choo is your best player you are probably not looking at a 75 win season.

    I think Santana is there best player myself. I just hope Grady make's a great comeback. I think they also may be on to a good closer as well. Not to underestimate Choo who has a great arm from the outfield. As far as fans tho Brett bandwagon or not those Yankee/Red Sox ones are unbearable !!!

    lounge fly