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This is ridiculous. How can this school sign this many players and stay within NCAA rules?
This has to be another example of the uneven playing field in CFB recruiting in the SEC. I haven't seen
any other school that has this many open slots for scholarships. I thought the NCAA cracked down on this
after the Ole Miss and Houston Nut debacle, where he brought in about 33 kids?
Total BS. Total garbage!
And don't give me any of the "Well Mark Richt is a good guy mess!" I guess if you ain't cheating or bending the rules,
then you ain't trying!
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SIAP posted by DrMiller166.
Thanks dude, but this was/is relevant.
Saw this tweet from oversigning.com
With a senior class of 9 scholarship players, Saban will still sign 25 next signing day. Where are the 16 openings coming from?
# of Players signed since 2008: Bama 134 Notre Dame 104. ND avg class 20.8 Bama: 26.8
9 seniors, and Alabama already has 19 verbal commitments for next year. When you look at Florida and Georgia, you see two programs a lot like Ohio State. Programs that are often good, sometimes dominant, and have a 'rebuilding' year every now and then. Like us, they don't oversign. The top four oversigning teams are in the SEC West: Alabama, LSU, Ole Miss, and Arkansas.
If Notre Dame plays Alabama for the national championship, Alabama will have had an extra class and a half on their roster. It's the #1 reason why they've been dominant. Saban is a good coach and they'd have a good team regardless, but this is the reason they're so good. The SEC made a rule that teams can't sign more than 25, that still means an average of four kids get cut every year. The Big Ten's rule, I believe, is that teams can't sign more than 3 players more than they have scholarships. If you have 15 seniors, you can sign 18 freshman, unless you petition the league because of some extraordinary circumstances. In the SEC, you can sign 25 no matter what - even if you have 3 seniors.
Will the NCAA ever step in and make a rule? Will four year scholarships be instituted across the board? Will the NCAA ever limit the amount of 'medical hardships' that schools can give? Will the SEC adopt rules that reflect not only fairness in college football, but an ethical fairness towards the student-athletes they recruit? While the SEC has had a great championship run, Urban Meyer is the only SEC coach to do it without the advantage of oversigning.
well, Texas A&M has more commits than GA right now. Jumped in the SEC pool with both feet...
Nasty, I agree on most of your opinions, but not this one brother. I am probably one out of 5 people on here that thinks over-signing is no big deal. Delaney has made it known that it's a business, and adding 2 teams from the East to gain TV viewers to raise millions of dollars is business. Schollies are a privilege not a right. You need to earn those schollies. So if it's a football scholly, then you have to earn that. How many players on this Buckeye team should not be on this team????? Probably more than people would agree on. Schools use these kids for football, players use these schools to gain access to the NFL. It's played both ways.
Now on the SEC, yes it's not fair, but life isn't fair. The NCAA is not going to change things, so why fight it. If you can't beat them, join them. If you look on that over-signing.com, you will see more schools from many conferences on the list. I understand the SEC has alot of them, but is the B1G wants to take the high moral ground on this, then when they keep losing to these other schools - they shouldn't bitch about it. It's not illegal what they are doing. They do it, get excellent recruits, and keep on winning. The B1G doesn't and has the 4th-5th best conference.
In the business world, do you complain and have the big boys come down to your level, or do you get your a$s out there and do whatever it takes to build your business stronger. Do you want slow lazy employees on your staff, no you want to cut fat sometimes and get employees that want to do better and make your business better.
Many on here look to deep into this over-signing thing. There are many valuables that go into this behind the scenes. Medical waivers, graduations, transfers, academic ineligibility, players who just quit, red-shirts, etc, etc. There are many hundreds of players get recruited each year, and only a handful (not even that) that get reported of losing a scholly to another recruit. Do the math.
No I don't want kids (even if it's my kid) to get a scholly and only to lose it to another player. But in the real world this is a teaching tool (just like real business) If a player can't perform on the field (which goes back to my main argument that they have to earn the scholly) then they have many different avenues they can do (transfer, receive a medical waiver scholly, pay on their own to the school, or even apply for different schollies) It's not like they can't stay at that school, you lose your scholly in football, soesn't mean you are kicked out of school.
It's competition people. If you were trying to get a full ride for an engineering scholly, you have to compete for it against hundreds of other students. Your GPA, application, etc can either make it or break it. Same with football. If you can't perform, or you are not that good, why should that scholly be used on a player that doesn't want to get better. Walk ons do the same don't they. Don't they walk on (pay their own way) make the team, and fight their as$es off to get the coach to give them a scholly because they deserve it. Many of these lazy a$s players take it for granite.
Sorry for the long rant, and this is not directed at you Nasty. But I am tired of this SEC over-signs BS.
Real life. America has developed into a country of takers, gimme this gimme that, hand-outs, insulation, no accountability. I like it but it'll never happen.
ESPN did do a long story on oversigning last year on OTL.
Here is the problem with oversigning, nobody cares about it because there is no face to oversigning.
The OSU mess with Tressel was a big story because a big name coach who many thought had a clean reputation was invloved with it. The Miami story has sex involved, so that draws attention. Oversigning has none of that and I dont think most people in college football really care about it.
there are indeed faces to oversigning.......those kids that get "cut" or get their schollies pulled at the last second. First, I am really surprised that these kids do not speak up and second, I am surprised news agencies do not go after them to find a story and write about what happens. I have seen a couple segments about it, but nothing major.
i think it's pathetic that the big ten is allowing these guys to have a scholarship for 4 years no matter what. personally, i think you need to earn your scholarship every year by your ability to practice, play and in the classroom. im shocked the big ten ok'd the 4 year scholarship. make them earn it. i understand all 85 scholarship players wont have an impact on a football game, but it doesnt mean they should get a free pass
I read this post and I have to admit that...I don't think I disagree with anything that you've said here. It's the FIRST rational defense of over signing that I've heard. Not sure why the SEC doesn't just come out and say it?
The only thing that I would add is that the kids/ families need to know the full status or things and that there is FULL DISCLOSURE going into the agreement, so there are no surprises later on then I am good with what you described. As taking a scholarship is a privilege not a right, I guess the kids need to do their homework and know that there are risks to begin with. Competition is good and the athletes should know this from the get go.
+1 Chu Good post
Boom, they probably don't speak up a lot because they've been paid to NOT speak up.
I agree life isn't fair. But we expect our sports to be fair. That's why we have referees--so it's a level playing field and everyone plays by the same rules. And while it's easy to perceive college sports as big business, particularly because it's all about making money, which is a fundamental necessity for any business, it's really not. It's a public trust and the NCAA is its designated trustee.
Per the NCAA's rules--which the SEC is a part of, not apart from--FBS schools are allowed 85 guys on scholarship and can sign 28 per class and admit 25 as long as its overall roster does not exceed 85. So they're legally allowed to oversign 3 (12%), which gets resolved if 3 of the 28 don't qualify academically. Also, if the school didn't max out the prior year's last, it can apply some of its leftover scholarships toward early enrollees.
Think of each recruiting class as a line item but the total roster is the bottom line and the bottom line is a maximum of 85 total. That's the most important number to remember.
UGA signed only 19 in its 2012 class. That put them 6 under the allowable maximum of 25. 19 + 31 = 50, which is the equivalent of two 25-man classes. And that's assuming none of last year's 19 didn't enroll early, in which case, they could have been credited to UGA's 2011 class (but probably weren't since it signed 26 recruits in 2011). And if not all of the 19 qualified, UGA's class could be even bigger than 31 it takes early enrollees. So while it's easy to be outraged by UGA's "oversigning," that does not appear to be the case, especially if their 2013 bottom line does not exceed 85. As long as it doesn't, they will be within the rules.
So aside from the 85/28/25-man limits, how does a school know how many scholarships it has to offer? It starts with how many seniors it has since theirs are the scholarships that will be available for the incoming recruits, although due to attrition, it doesn't have to end with just the seniors.
Due to the sanctions, we are allowed 82 total. We currently have 75 on scholarship. That gives us 7 to play with. We have 15 seniors but rumor has it Jordan Hall will be redshirted, so that gets adjusted to 14. 14 + 7 = 21. Assume four more due to attrition, whether it's Hankins and/or Roby to the NFL or medical redshirts or transfers or kicked off the team or homesickness or whatever, and the 2013 class could get as big as 25. With 17 commits now, which still puts us 4 under our current cap of 21, 25 would prospectively give Urban upwards of 8 more spots to fill on top of the current 17.
He wants to know what he has to work with sooner rather than later. This year's NFL draft deadline will be on or about January 15, and between now and then, he'll sit down with his staff and returning players and assess their long-term status so that he knows exactly how many scholarships he has to give out on NSD.
I agree, it the kids that need to be aware of this when accepting a scholly from Alabama or whoever knowing that it could be pulled.
This post was edited by jwm552002 20 months ago
Absolutely nasty. I miss this in my long rant. Spot on. These kids and their families should know what they are getting into. If you are a southern kid, and get that scholly from bama or LSU or whatever Seck team recruits you, if they cut your scholly the next year, it's partially there faults. They know what they are getting into.
Nice breakdown Iowa. And like I said earlier, it's not against the rules. If the Seck was signing players over that 85 limit (let's say having 91 kids on their team, that's against the rules), but what you pointed out, there are many variables to this. So it might seem like it's over-signing, but technically it's not.
I just think when you look at the whole picture, pick a team out there and you will find many of their fanbases saying 5-8 of the guys on the team should not be there. Maybe more. I do believe though that you have to give the player a chance. You can't cut him the 1st season (usually this isn't the case anyways), but if you have a Senior or redshirt junior, that doesn't put his all in practice, isn't learning the playbook like he should be, and has a bad attitude that is disrupting the team, why not let him go. Most of these situations the kid transfers anyways, but give that scholly to a player that deserves it.
I am also in line with what Belucky said. These 4 year schollies haunt me. More often than not, you will have a player wasting away this scholly. 4 years of his life, he will be the 3rd string backup getting past by a freshman or up and comer.
This argument has been going on for many years, and nothing will change, so rather than saying that the Seck cheats for doing this, lighten up the rules for the B1G so some of these mid tier B1G teams can get an advantage. I am not saying that all B1G teams will do it, and do it every year. I am saying once in a while, that B1G team gets that huge recruiting class to help out down the road.
I disagree with over recruiting on all fronts. Here is why, first players are making a choice saying they are going to your school. They are many times not going to another team and many of these SEC schools are pulling scholarships after other teams are full. As an example, player A has schollies from Georgia Tech, Alabama, and Vandy. Player A picks Alabama but a week before or on signing day Alabama tells him they are full, now so are Vandy and Tech. This happens more often than you think and the kid gets hosed because a coach does not care. Same with the LSU QB that was a sophomore and practicing for playing time in spring ball, and then during summer is told he has to pay? Come on now, I agree when the kid is not fulfilling his side of the bargain we need to be able to take steps, while in reality it is on our coaches to make sure we sign players that are able to play. So far I think we have done a good job, while I would rather all other schools be forced to abide by the correct set of rules than let ourselves be turned into lying cheating programs that do not mention this up front.
On the other hand, as you said life is not fair and in high school, at least when I was growing up, people got cut and it made some people better for it. I can see both sides, while what about when the kid is really trying.....should we just kick him to the curb? As has been stated, they are making money for the school hand over foot, so they should be punished? Many of these kids families are scrapping by to help them be able to live a little better. Also remember we have the option to pass on them, get them out for grades, misconduct, etc. Seems like they are at our mercy already and I do not think we should add to that! Make the other schools do things correctly and continue to do the right things in our own program...like making four year deals. Trust me they will still have to meet grades, conduct, etc in order for that to be maintained.
It is part oversigning, but UGA is also down a lot of scholarships because they have kicked so many players off the team the last couple years.
Let's play a game. We'll call it poker. As chips, we'll use M&Ms. Each color has a different value with blue worth the most, then red, green, yellow, and brown. Everyone gets 85 M&Ms to start the game. One of the players grabs a separate handful of M&Ms that he says he intends to eat but as the game progresses, he starts eating the green, yellow and brown M&Ms in his chip pile and replaces them with blue and red M&Ms from his other pile. The other players cry foul but he shrugs his shoulders and keeps doing it anyway. The problem is no one gets up and walks away. They just keep playing. Half decide that if they can't beat him, they'll join him while the other half, outraged though they may be, believe they can still beat the "cheaters" by following the rules and playing the game the way it was supposed to be played.
That's the fundamental nature of oversigning. It's not a great analogy, I admit, but it works because it's based on a limited quantity of a valued commodity and how you go about not only replenishing but upgrading your inventory.
Alabama has 16 seniors and 19 commitments. Last year's class had 26 so Saban can't credit any early 2013 enrollees to it. That means, on paper, Alabama's 2013 class of 19 is already 3 over its limit of 16. But per Rivals, Saban has offers out to 34 uncommitted players, most of whom are 4/5-star recruits (including Vonn Bell, Laremy Tunsil, Derrick Green, Greg Bryant, and LaQuon Treadwell). If he signs 25, which means adding another 6 commitments on top of the current 19, he's going to have to get rid of 9 of his 69 returning players. That's 13% of his returning roster. How's he going to produce 9 more scholarships? And don't be surprised if he signs 28 and then tells three of them he doesn't have room for them. That's what he did to a RB from Georgia last year who missed his senior season because of a knee injury.
That's how they roll in the SEC. Why are you so shocked? Auburn was paying player's left and right. Remember Jordan Diamond? the kid out of Chicago last year that we backed off after he was asking for some $$ Well their is a reason why he wen't down south.
Oh yeah.. I forgot about that hussle!
Where's the bag man???
The last i heard about him was a Chicago news paper wrote that he took money from Auburn he was telling people back home this and it got out. He is still there but I bet not for long since the NCAA is breathing down Auburn's neck. You know something is up when a kid out of Chicago goes to school somewhere in Alabama.
Because their official recruit counter ran out of fingers and toes? You know how difficult them numbers can be for those folk down south.
This post was edited by Gobucks187TTUN 20 months ago
"The only thing That Team Up North will be tasting this year is the salty tears of defeat" - UFM
So basically it's not an over signing issue per say, but an ethical issue of cutting players or at least "persuading" them to leave the team to make way for the better players? Or breaking promises to a lessor player (hedging bets) in case the better player comes to the school?
And there's no NCAA standards of this type of issue?
I think "oversigning" is a multi-headed hydra. But its body is asset management and production. That's where it starts--maximizing the talent on the roster.
Imagine if you worked for a large corporation on a 1-year contract that specified that at the conclusion of that year, both parties had the option to renew it for another year but if either party chose not to, you, as the employee, couldn't work for another company for a year. As the employee, you would probably want that contract renewed. But it might not matter that you worked hard, were a good and loyal employee, maybe didn't reel in any big accounts but was dependable and reliable. If the company decided not to renew, you're screwed.
That may be one reason (beside financial as the most obvious) why the schools are resisting paying players--then they'd start getting into labor law territory, e.g., wrongful termination, employee rights, insurance benefits, payroll deductions, etc.
I say everyone gets to over sign as many players as they want. Why have a limit? Didn't used to have one. And what schmuck came up with the 85 player total. Hell, if a school can afford to let a player sit the pine on a full ride and never see the field, so what. If the player can't cut it athletically, improve enough or the next kid beats him out, tough shit. In my scenario every kid gets a college education even though he may suck at football and the team still prospers.
So it's OK if a player has 3 offers to schools, tells OSU he is committed to them, and on signing day he retracts his offer and goes to another school. So now OSU is down a scholly because they thought this kid would sign. But if a school goes out and has 4 spots left and 7 offers out there, and they pull a offer for a couple of those kids -they are deemed to hell.
It goes both ways. You get an engineering degree from State U, and you have to maintain a 3.2 GPA to keep your scholly. 2 years goes by and something happens in your personnal life, your grads start to slip, you eventually lose that scholly. That scholly is then given to another freshman coming in to give him a shot at living out his dream. Are you saying that is a bad thing, and that school did wrong??? This happens all the time. It happened to my wife. No big deal, she found another way to stay in school and finish it out.
You people talk about all these kids getting cut and destroying their lifes, because there was over signing in schollies for all these schools. But when you truely look deep into it, why are there only a few cases of this happening. I see stats of Seck and other conferences over signing by 8-12 players each year, at least 12-20 schools doing this. So that's what hundreds of kids being cut each year. Do you see hundreds of stories about kids being cut for the wrong reasons????? Maybe a few here and there.
1st off let me state that I don't think it's right to do it. I am just saying that it's not illegal to do, and if most of these conferences are doing it, and kicking our a$ses, then there is no excuse (can't complain) about this happening. Do I want the NCAA to have a firm rule in place for everyone to abide on - Hell YES. Is it going to happen - NO. But every year we debate about this, and it's the same old story.
First we are the ones seeking his commitment, so he has every right to change his mind until he signs on the dotted line. I agree that it stinks when it happens, while the NCAA could fix it with an early signing period like in basketball. No different than every other contract, you can say I will stay, I will go, but until the deadline comes and goes or you sign no one ever really knows.
As for maintaining a certain GPA, well that is true for any type of scolly. Matter of fact even the kids playing football have a certain GPA to meet. It was never said the school did wrong on any of these. In your instance, the kid did not meet the requirements, which is put in writing when you get an academic scholarship. Again the key being in writing. That is the deal with oversigning and the legal issue...schollys are all one year until more schools put four year deals in place. Difference is only some schools really abide by the year by year and most let you stay onscolarship even if you never play a down. Where I see oversigning being an issue is when you commit to a school, believing you are commiting to a full ride, and then if your Alabama find out it is a gray shirt. Not cool, when you probably had a full ride somewhere, just about anywhere, else. If this is negotiated in the beginning....no issue, just when it is not. Same with having a kid on scholarship, kid is really trying and giving it all, but finds out he no longer has a scholarship. This is wrong....just my honest opinion.
The reason you see so few cases is thatmost are covered up. Kid decides to transfer to a AA school where he can play immediately and get school for free. Same is true if they pull it at the last minute, kid usually signs with a school he has never visitied, or maybe has, and was a second choice if he is lucky. Remember these are the same kids making our university money hand over fist when they do play. In the end, two wrongs do not make it right. If I find something unethical, I would rather us not join in just because others are doing it. Legal or not, it is most definitly unethical. In the end you are correct, it is not illegal so not a real good reason to complain. I would rather stick to my ethical guide to steer me corectly than say just do it because others are. In the end, usually this pays off, as sooner or later people will realize it. I recently moved out of Tennessee to Texas and it amazes me how many SEC fans do not even realize that it is happening. Most who do are not caring because they are the best conference......issue is like you said what if it is your child next? You say learning experience, but at what price?
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