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Should we be concerned about the lack of size of our DEs?

  • The one thing that concerns me and it's probably much ado about nothing are some of the defensive recruits we're bringing in vs the type Saban goes after.

    Now don't get me wrong: we've done a great job in building depth on the defensive line like never before, however, as I watch this draft more and more and see how Saban is putting LB'ers into the NFL who're around the upper 240s-260 lb range and most of ours are around 225-235 lbs. Then couple that with our DE's being in the 245-250 lb range and theirs 270-285 lbs (prototypical NFL size), I wonder how it may affect us in big games.

    Alabama, LSU and Georgia in particular have prototypically sized LBers and DEs and when they hit, you feel the impact. These guys run like gazelles and hit like Mack trucks due to their size. Maybe again this is much ado about nothing but I think we need to have more prototypically sized defensive ends and linebackers and fewer hybrid types. Often here I hear a defensive coach say that if a LB'er prospect who's around 235-240 range puts on any additional weight (say 5-15 lbs) that he'll have to put his hand in the dirt, i.e. play as a DE. They don't say this in the SEC because the LBers and DEs they get are about already NFL size or damn near it by the time they arrive on campus.

    The only prototypically sized DE we've had in recent years was Cam Heyward with the LB'er sized Nathan Williams on the other end. I will give us credit though for finally going after prototypically sized DTs which is something it took us years to get to after having Doug Worthington playing on the inside. We now have Hankins, Bennett with Schutt coming in with Simon being our version of Alabama's recently drafted Courtney Upshaw.

    So my hope is that in time we'll get some of those nasty, tree-trunk arm sized DEs and LB'ers who have QBs, RBs and receivers reversing field 15 yards just to try and avoid them. Because they know if and when they hit, it may be the end of their careers.

    While at Florida, Meyer's LBers and DEs were for the most part prototypically sized such as Brandon Spikes who weighed in around the 250 range and Carlos Dunlap, Derek Harvey, Dominique Easley among others. I just hope we don't continue Tressel's trend (and the B10's in general) of having a defensive lineup consisting of LBers playing DE and DEs playing inside while operating in a basic 4-3. Again, maybe I'm making a mountain out of molehill because we've yet to see how any of this will pan out in the Fall but I'm just looking at how the SEC defenses operate and how the B10 continues to.

    And based on just some of the DE recruits we've landed in recent days, just asking some questions early on even though I know and understand they could get switched to other positions as well.

    sugarcrystal

  • trcb777

  • Both Urban and Saban will recruit the best players at a position. It is the Marotti's of this world that will help determine how much weight these kids can hold and still run well. It is a constant balancing act with nutrition, weight training, and conditioning. It is the hope that adding pounds over time will not result in a significant loss of speed or quickness. Keep in mind, some of these kids show up on campus as 17 yr olds. Shazier probably eats 10,000 calories a day but he will unlikely ever play at 240. Some players that put on weight easily can also be more susceptible to injuries like pulled muscles, ligament tears, and joint injuries.

    bee keeper

  • trcb777 said...

    No

    this

    signature image signature image signature image

    DSBUX

  • These guys are not playing at that weight their entire collegiate careers at Bama. He gets them, they play many years and then even put some weight on prior to draft.

    Short answer...NO

    signature image signature image signature image

    foubazzi ●

  • Defensive ends in the NFL aren't necessarily big. More teams are going to a 3-4 defense, which requires ends to be in the 275-295 range, but 4-3 teams don't need ends that size. I've been a Colts fan for years, and smaller guys like Robert Mathis and Dwight Freeney have been the strength of the defense. If you get two strong tackles, you can get away with smaller ends who get into the backfield and disrupt the offense with their speed.

    drmiller166

  • I think we should lose a lot of sleep over this topic - I mean guys like Simon / Williams / Bellamy / Moore / Farris / Miller / Bennett / Hayes &then add in Spense / Washington & Pittman are all way too small to ever make it at any level of football biggrin

    trigg03

  • sugarcrystal said...

    The one thing that concerns me and it's probably much ado about nothing are some of the defensive recruits we're bringing in vs the type Saban goes after.

    Now don't get me wrong: we've done a great job in building depth on the defensive line like never before, however, as I watch this draft more and more and see how Saban is putting LB'ers into the NFL who're around the upper 240s-260 lb range and most of ours are around 225-235 lbs. Then couple that with our DE's being in the 245-250 lb range and theirs 270-285 lbs (prototypical NFL size), I wonder how it may affect us in big games.

    Alabama, LSU and Georgia in particular have prototypically sized LBers and DEs and when they hit, you feel the impact. These guys run like gazelles and hit like Mack trucks due to their size. Maybe again this is much ado about nothing but I think we need to have more prototypically sized defensive ends and linebackers and fewer hybrid types. Often here I hear a defensive coach say that if a LB'er prospect who's around 235-240 range puts on any additional weight (say 5-15 lbs) that he'll have to put his hand in the dirt, i.e. play as a DE. They don't say this in the SEC because the LBers and DEs they get are about already NFL size or damn near it by the time they arrive on campus.

    The only prototypically sized DE we've had in recent years was Cam Heyward with the LB'er sized Nathan Williams on the other end. I will give us credit though for finally going after prototypically sized DTs which is something it took us years to get to after having Doug Worthington playing on the inside. We now have Hankins, Bennett with Schutt coming in with Simon being our version of Alabama's recently drafted Courtney Upshaw.

    So my hope is that in time we'll get some of those nasty, tree-trunk arm sized DEs and LB'ers who have QBs, RBs and receivers reversing field 15 yards just to try and avoid them. Because they know if and when they hit, it may be the end of their careers.

    While at Florida, Meyer's LBers and DEs were for the most part prototypically sized such as Brandon Spikes who weighed in around the 250 range and Carlos Dunlap, Derek Harvey, Dominique Easley among others. I just hope we don't continue Tressel's trend (and the B10's in general) of having a defensive lineup consisting of LBers playing DE and DEs playing inside while operating in a basic 4-3. Again, maybe I'm making a mountain out of molehill because we've yet to see how any of this will pan out in the Fall but I'm just looking at how the SEC defenses operate and how the B10 continues to.

    And based on just some of the DE recruits we've landed in recent days, just asking some questions early on even though I know and understand they could get switched to other positions as well.

    I'm not that concerned with our size at d-end because they are intended to be speed rushers. Saban uses his entire d-line to overpower the pro-style offenses of the SEC. Most of the lines in the BIG are pro-style but their offfensive tackles aren't as athletic as the SEC's. I think Meyer intends to use our ends force the opponents inside, where we have size at defensive tackle and linebacker.

    Be Cool12

  • Quickness and technique and drills teach a defensive end how to fire off the ball and the drills also teach the defensive end specific moves to beat the offensive lineman and get to the quarterback. OSU's Will Smith (One of the best ever DE) was only 6'3 260.. Smith had one of the best "swim moves" of any Buckeye DE...A DE with quickness speed and great technique is a nightmare for any offensive tackle.

    Playsignature image signature image

    gessig

  • The last thing I'm worried about is our DE's or DL with the players we have and players Meyer is bringing in. Go Bucks!

    This post has been edited 2 times, most recently by OsuBucks04 on 4/28/2012 at 11:24 AM

    OsuBucks04

  • drmiller166 said...

    Defensive ends in the NFL aren't necessarily big. More teams are going to a 3-4 defense, which requires ends to be in the 275-295 range, but 4-3 teams don't need ends that size. I've been a Colts fan for years, and smaller guys like Robert Mathis and Dwight Freeney have been the strength of the defense. If you get two strong tackles, you can get away with smaller ends who get into the backfield and disrupt the offense with their speed.

    Good point.

    sugarcrystal

  • drmiller166 said...

    Defensive ends in the NFL aren't necessarily big. More teams are going to a 3-4 defense, which requires ends to be in the 275-295 range, but 4-3 teams don't need ends that size. I've been a Colts fan for years, and smaller guys like Robert Mathis and Dwight Freeney have been the strength of the defense. If you get two strong tackles, you can get away with smaller ends who get into the backfield and disrupt the offense with their speed.

    Actually they are more in the range of 290-320 which is also the same defense Saban runs (3-4 base). Usually with 4 down linemen they don't have to be as big across the line. Plus these guys don't come in and be this big. In college football these kids are 3 years in at the least and if these kids are entering freshman year at around 230 lbs it's not too far fetched to see these kids add 20-40 lbs. The top programs with the best weight program will also have these kids maintaining or barely losing any speed.

    Jeapas

  • They are underclassmen. They are 18 year old kids. Comparing 18-19 year old kids to 22 year old men and then saying "Why are our players smaller?" doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

    Kids grow. Simon was around 285-290 as a strong side end last year. You left him out. Why? He seems to fit the prototypical NFL size for a sse. Adam Bellamy is 305 and plays outside. Daryl Baldwin is 290. WSE are not about holding point. They are about speed rushing the QB so you don't want a guy to wiegh 290 lbs trying to get around the edge because a 260 guy will do much better.

    Meyer just brought in Bosa who isn't even finished with high school and he is 260 and still growing. He'll be a three technique tackle eventually but he will play sse in the mean time.

    Meyer is out recruiting Alabama and Saban in regards to defensive linemen and it isn't even close. If anything this should be about why Saban can't recruit as well as Meyer is on defensive line because the past two recruiting seasons OSU has no peer in regards to their defensive line haul. Saban hasn't landed one defensive lineman in this class and Meyer has already pulled in 2 top lineman in the country in Bosa and Price. Sprinkle is in the process of blowing up this year and will be much higher rated by the end of this season.

    Saban? (cricket chirps)

    We are lean at linebacker. Bell was a big boy who was going to play. He left. He would've been a sick talent as good as anyone in the country. Shazier may be even better. Is he small? Yeah. But he is fast as hell and he is young. He will get bigger because.....he is still growing. Linebacker is being addressed. We signed Anzalone who is a good one. We brought in a couple last year who look to compete in Perry, Williams, Perkins, and spring camp standout Luke Roberts who looks to be a steal.

    Meyer hasn't even had one year here. He has had two months and this season. When he showed up we were lean at linebacker, offensive line, and WR. He is addressing those needs and filling them with talent. This talent isn't going to make an immediate impact. It won't really start to show untill next year and the year after when he has 2 classes of players under his belt.

    "The only thing That Team Up North will be tasting this year is the salty tears of defeat" - UFM

    Gobucks187TTUN

  • Simon is no more then 270 lbs.

    signature image signature image signature image

    trcb777

  • while I understand the point; speed KILLS!

    why lock horns w/a cornfed Badger, when you can run right by 'em? I was the guy last year squaking about putting Shazier @ DE when Nate went down...

    signature image signature image signature image

    3ydncloudofdust

  • trcb777 said...

    Simon is no more then 270 lbs.

    Now he is. But before the new training regime kicked in he played last season a little heavier.

    "The only thing That Team Up North will be tasting this year is the salty tears of defeat" - UFM

    Gobucks187TTUN

  • Gobucks187TTUN said...

    Now he is. But before the new training regime kicked in he played last season a little heavier.

    Where did you see that Simon was in the 285 - 290 lbs range ? Simon's listed at 6'2" which means he's probably 6'1". 285 - 290 lbs would be a lot for him to carry esp since he doesn't have the biggest of frames.

    farmem

  • sugarcrystal said...

    The one thing that concerns me and it's probably much ado about nothing are some of the defensive recruits we're bringing in vs the type Saban goes after.

    Now don't get me wrong: we've done a great job in building depth on the defensive line like never before, however, as I watch this draft more and more and see how Saban is putting LB'ers into the NFL who're around the upper 240s-260 lb range and most of ours are around 225-235 lbs. Then couple that with our DE's being in the 245-250 lb range and theirs 270-285 lbs (prototypical NFL size), I wonder how it may affect us in big games.

    Alabama, LSU and Georgia in particular have prototypically sized LBers and DEs and when they hit, you feel the impact. These guys run like gazelles and hit like Mack trucks due to their size. Maybe again this is much ado about nothing but I think we need to have more prototypically sized defensive ends and linebackers and fewer hybrid types. Often here I hear a defensive coach say that if a LB'er prospect who's around 235-240 range puts on any additional weight (say 5-15 lbs) that he'll have to put his hand in the dirt, i.e. play as a DE. They don't say this in the SEC because the LBers and DEs they get are about already NFL size or damn near it by the time they arrive on campus.

    The only prototypically sized DE we've had in recent years was Cam Heyward with the LB'er sized Nathan Williams on the other end. I will give us credit though for finally going after prototypically sized DTs which is something it took us years to get to after having Doug Worthington playing on the inside. We now have Hankins, Bennett with Schutt coming in with Simon being our version of Alabama's recently drafted Courtney Upshaw.

    So my hope is that in time we'll get some of those nasty, tree-trunk arm sized DEs and LB'ers who have QBs, RBs and receivers reversing field 15 yards just to try and avoid them. Because they know if and when they hit, it may be the end of their careers.

    While at Florida, Meyer's LBers and DEs were for the most part prototypically sized such as Brandon Spikes who weighed in around the 250 range and Carlos Dunlap, Derek Harvey, Dominique Easley among others. I just hope we don't continue Tressel's trend (and the B10's in general) of having a defensive lineup consisting of LBers playing DE and DEs playing inside while operating in a basic 4-3. Again, maybe I'm making a mountain out of molehill because we've yet to see how any of this will pan out in the Fall but I'm just looking at how the SEC defenses operate and how the B10 continues to.

    And based on just some of the DE recruits we've landed in recent days, just asking some questions early on even though I know and understand they could get switched to other positions as well.

    Let's bring in some 330 pounds of lard that can't be blocked? banghead

    maci57

  • Gobucks187TTUN said...

    They are underclassmen. They are 18 year old kids. Comparing 18-19 year old kids to 22 year old men and then saying "Why are our players smaller?" doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

    Kids grow. Simon was around 285-290 as a strong side end last year. You left him out. Why? He seems to fit the prototypical NFL size for a sse.

    Simon came out of winter conditioning at 260. He has no future at DT in the pros. But as a shorter guy with speed and a high motor, he can get under and around taller, less mobile OTs. He can be another Freeney.

    GoBuxGo

  • Be Cool12 said...

    I'm not that concerned with our size at d-end because they are intended to be speed rushers. Saban uses his entire d-line to overpower the pro-style offenses of the SEC. Most of the lines in the BIG are pro-style but their offfensive tackles aren't as athletic as the SEC's. I think Meyer intends to use our ends force the opponents inside, where we have size at defensive tackle and linebacker.

    This

    IndyDog

  • I agree that it's definitely the trend to put speed and quickness at the defensive end to counter the bulky tackles. You're not really going to bull rush a 300+ lb. tackle that spends hours in the weight room. You need to be able to get around him and get to the ball carrier or the QB with the quick release. The lean DE with height and long arms can also get into the passing lanes.

    The bigger, immovable objects are put at defensive tackle to tie up as many blockers as possible. These guys are wide bodies, but surprisingly quick and athletic for their size.

    This is how Florida and LSU beat the crap out of us in back-to-back NC games. It's refreshing to see Meyer recruiting in the right guys to be able to compete with the SEC. I also like that Meyer seems to be looking at offensive lineman that aren't as heavy. If a kid is well over 300 lbs. at 17 years old, its just not a good sign.

    I see the biggest threat to Urban's strategy as Wisconsin. Their style is probably the best way to counter SEC type speed and quickness. Run right at them with big powerful backs behind a huge line surging forward to wear the smaller defenders down.

    JAG24

  • GoBuxGo said...

    Simon came out of winter conditioning at 260. He has no future at DT in the pros. But as a shorter guy with speed and a high motor, he can get under and around taller, less mobile OTs. He can be another Freeney.

    Simon looks as freakish as he plays. He's either on every Joe Weider product ever made or roided out of his mind.

    JAG24

  • This post wins for stupidist post this week,hands down,doesn't even have a close second.Drop the needle and pray.

    tommyq

  • GoBuxGo said...

    Simon came out of winter conditioning at 260. He has no future at DT in the pros. But as a shorter guy with speed and a high motor, he can get under and around taller, less mobile OTs. He can be another Freeney.

    Simon is no where as near as athletic as freeney is

    AllDay28

  • AllDay28 said...

    Simon is no where as near as athletic as freeney is

    i'm concerned about lack of size !

    soflabuck

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