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Maybe our form of government is the problem

  • I am curious how many liberals and conservatives might agree with this.

    Maybe our financial problems in terms of deficits and the debt have a lot to do with our representative democracy.

    Whose job is it to do what is best for nation as a whole? The POTUS, of course. Who else?

    Whether I am a senator from New York or Oklahoma, it is my job to best represent my state. The long and short of it is that it is the job of every representative in Congress to get as much money as possible for their districts and states. If they don't, they won't likely win many re-elections. Whether it's farm subsidies or defense spending or other pork barrel projects, every member of the House and the Senate is trying to get as much federal money as possible. They make deals with each other- you approve spending that helps my state and I'll return the favor.

    None of them are truly invested in what's best financially for the country as a whole. In fact, they have a financial disincentive to control federal spending.

    I am not saying we should change it. I am not proposing another form of government. I am simply asking whether you agree that part of the problem is that our elected representatives are worried less about the deficit than they are about getting re-elected.

    BucksinWA

  • Valid point, especially as it relates to the history of pork-barrel spending by both parties in this country. That said, I'd welcome a President who truly is looking out for the best interests of the country versus pandering to special interests. Related to your point is one of the most thought-provoking ideas I heard several years ago - Presidents should be limited to one six-year term. Why one term? We all know it takes a while to bring about change and make any real positive impact on the country, and six years is a long enough time to get some real things done. Also, from the minute a new President is sworn in you could argue that everything done from that point forward is tainted by the desire to get re-elected. Factor in the long election cycles and media scrutiny we now have, and the real question is how does anything get done that is for the good of the country when it's all about re-election? President's spend their first term trying to get re-elected, and if re-elected much of their second term is as a lame duck. Solution - one six-year term.

    "You're only young once, but you can always be immature."

    excabuckeye

  • excabuckeye said...

    Valid point, especially as it relates to the history of pork-barrel spending by both parties in this country. That said, I'd welcome a President who truly is looking out for the best interests of the country versus pandering to special interests. Related to your point is one of the most thought-provoking ideas I heard several years ago - Presidents should be limited to one six-year term. Why one term? We all know it takes a while to bring about change and make any real positive impact on the country, and six years is a long enough time to get some real things done. Also, from the minute a new President is sworn in you could argue that everything done from that point forward is tainted by the desire to get re-elected. Factor in the long election cycles and media scrutiny we now have, and the real question is how does anything get done that is for the good of the country when it's all about re-election? President's spend their first term trying to get re-elected, and if re-elected much of their second term is as a lame duck. Solution - one six-year term.

    Great points! I like the idea and I also think we should have term limits for Congress as well. One six-year term as Senator. Maybe three in Congress. You get six years in each max. No pandering to run for re-election.

    As was pointed out on another thread, there are 300+ million of us. No one thinks we could find competent replacements every six years?

    BucksinWA

  • State rights has always been a huge issue in the country. I think the problem is that we have too diverse and large of an area to manage from a federal level. The problem is instead of things being left out because they benefit so few we instead see votes bought by adding that. I love the Internet of statesmen controlling the federal government. If it doesn't benefit a majority (of states and population) it houldnt be done. Think our current problem is instead of it being left out because it isn't good instead more is added to it to get votes to get it through.

    shaunsimpson

  • This is why there should be a cap on federal spending.

    The problem is, the people who are the reason we need this cap are the very people we need to pass it.

    We can't entirely hold the president responsible. The POTUS doesn't pass laws. The POTUS only has veto power and the POTUS can propose a bill. But ultimately the house and senate approve. So I don't blame the POTUS for ALL the reckless spending. Just the reckless spending that he is responsible for. Coincidentally, thats still a huge number.

    But we can't remove the incentive from legislators to garner funding for their state. That would disenfranchise the citizens of that state. We want to encourage this. But we have to set spending limits that cannot be exceeded and there have to be measures for making sure those spending limits aren't exceeded. Thats the real problem. Any other talk or claim and we are just spinning our wheels.

    Furthermore, it seems only those in congress oppose the notion of term limits. Because it appears all Americans, Republican or Democrat or Libertarian or Independent, all agree almost unanimously on term limits. Essentially, a politician's motivation should not be getting re-elected. However, without the prospect of career politicians, it will be even more difficult to recruit the best and brightest to run our country. Something that we are failing at as it is, even with the corrupt government we have today. My Father-in-law just retired as a major executive from one of America's top companies. We asked him why he never had political ambitions. His answer "I can have a better life in the private economy". That would ring even more true with term limits. Where essentially people would simply have to take a leave of absence from their careers for public service.

    signature image

    60% of the time, it works every time...

    playmea

  • playmea said...

    This is why there should be a cap on federal spending.

    The problem is, the people who are the reason we need this cap are the very people we need to pass it.

    We can't entirely hold the president responsible. The POTUS doesn't pass laws. The POTUS only has veto power and the POTUS can propose a bill. But ultimately the house and senate approve. So I don't blame the POTUS for ALL the reckless spending. Just the reckless spending that he is responsible for. Coincidentally, thats still a huge number.

    But we can't remove the incentive from legislators to garner funding for their state. That would disenfranchise the citizens of that state. We want to encourage this. But we have to set spending limits that cannot be exceeded and there have to be measures for making sure those spending limits aren't exceeded. Thats the real problem. Any other talk or claim and we are just spinning our wheels.

    Furthermore, it seems only those in congress oppose the notion of term limits. Because it appears all Americans, Republican or Democrat or Libertarian or Independent, all agree almost unanimously on term limits. Essentially, a politician's motivation should not be getting re-elected. However, without the prospect of career politicians, it will be even more difficult to recruit the best and brightest to run our country. Something that we are failing at as it is, even with the corrupt government we have today. My Father-in-law just retired as a major executive from one of America's top companies. We asked him why he never had political ambitions. His answer "I can have a better life in the private economy". That would ring even more true with term limits. Where essentially people would simply have to take a leave of absence from their careers for public service.

    While probably butchering Plato in the Republic, I seem to recall a framework for public service. To apply it today might go something like this: all those who enter public service should be prepared to do so through training and life experiences. If you want to be a public servant, you probably shouldn't be. The best and brightest from the private sector should basically be conscripted to serve.

    What we have now are "public servants" who really just want to live off the federal government without really accomplishing anything or, in many cases, making an honest effort to improve life for their fellow Americans. Rather than picking only from those who seek the power or who want to spend their lives being paid by the government, we should be compelling those CEO's, scientists and intellectuals to serve their country for the greater good.

    I know it won't happen, but it's an interesting concept.

    BucksinWA

  • BucksinWA said...

    While probably butchering Plato in the Republic, I seem to recall a framework for public service. To apply it today might go something like this: all those who enter public service should be prepared to do so through training and life experiences. If you want to be a public servant, you probably shouldn't be. The best and brightest from the private sector should basically be conscripted to serve.

    What we have now are "public servants" who really just want to live off the federal government without really accomplishing anything or, in many cases, making an honest effort to improve life for their fellow Americans. Rather than picking only from those who seek the power or who want to spend their lives being paid by the government, we should be compelling those CEO's, scientists and intellectuals to serve their country for the greater good.

    I know it won't happen, but it's an interesting concept.

    And in the US we kill people for success. Romney is getting killed for being a successful business man and Obama was elected after being a community organizer and a academic. Politicians being politicians is indeed a problem. You have to know how to play the game to win and those who may be the best at the jobs are not willing to put up with that.

    And I am not criticizing Obama there, but for him to understand the Heath Care Programs of this company coming from a constructional law background and community service background is almost as humorous as all of the people who bitch about it understanding it. Things like this have so many variables per state that it is impossible. Although, I do find it humorous that a constitutional law professor at a top 5 law school in the country develops a health plan that is unconstitutional.

    This post has been edited 2 times, most recently by shaunsimpson on 4/18/2012 at 1:35 PM

    shaunsimpson

  • Maybe we should just get rid of that dumb ass illegal president we have and start over. Go Bucks.

    sinuay

  • LEGALIZE MARY JANE!!!! ALL DEBT WILL BE GONE AND NO ONE WILL LIVE IN DEBT ANY LONGER. THE BEST WAY AND THE FASTEST WAY...... HOW MUCH LONGER DO WE NEED TO WAIT>>>

    Bmurf35

  • BucksinWA said...

    While probably butchering Plato in the Republic, I seem to recall a framework for public service. To apply it today might go something like this: all those who enter public service should be prepared to do so through training and life experiences. If you want to be a public servant, you probably shouldn't be. The best and brightest from the private sector should basically be conscripted to serve.

    What we have now are "public servants" who really just want to live off the federal government without really accomplishing anything or, in many cases, making an honest effort to improve life for their fellow Americans. Rather than picking only from those who seek the power or who want to spend their lives being paid by the government, we should be compelling those CEO's, scientists and intellectuals to serve their country for the greater good.

    I know it won't happen, but it's an interesting concept.

    Dude - right on. I think this is the root of the problem. Politicians simply are not the best and the brightest - especially those that are career politicians. Coupling that line of thought with whether or not representatives only make decisions in order to get re-elected - of course they do! If they are not re-elected, they don't have the past job experience necessary to achieve success in the private sector.

    osuwells

  • BucksinWA said...

    While probably butchering Plato in the Republic, I seem to recall a framework for public service. To apply it today might go something like this: all those who enter public service should be prepared to do so through training and life experiences. If you want to be a public servant, you probably shouldn't be. The best and brightest from the private sector should basically be conscripted to serve.

    What we have now are "public servants" who really just want to live off the federal government without really accomplishing anything or, in many cases, making an honest effort to improve life for their fellow Americans. Rather than picking only from those who seek the power or who want to spend their lives being paid by the government, we should be compelling those CEO's, scientists and intellectuals to serve their country for the greater good.

    I know it won't happen, but it's an interesting concept.

    To piggyback on what (I believe) shaunsimpson is saying, Americans and professional politicians are quite gifted at marginalizing the political aptitude of our best and brightest. They have successfully created an atmosphere that perpetuates career politicians and demonizing private experience. The irony is that these are the very same individuals who complain about career politicians.

    Forcing poeple into public service isn't exactly freedom though is it? We can't compromize what makes us great simply so we can force people with the most aptitude to lead us against their will.

    Instead, we should devise better and smarter methods of incentivizing.

    Thomas Jefferson HATED HATED HATED being a politician. And was constantly trying to avoid it. He used much of his own wealth to pay for a great deal of things. And he gained very little from public life. The only reason he did it was because he cared so much. Today, we simply can't do that. There are no people like that. And the few that try to be, we discredit them.

    signature image

    60% of the time, it works every time...

    playmea

  • Bmurf35 said...

    LEGALIZE MARY JANE!!!! ALL DEBT WILL BE GONE AND NO ONE WILL LIVE IN DEBT ANY LONGER. THE BEST WAY AND THE FASTEST WAY...... HOW MUCH LONGER DO WE NEED TO WAIT>>>

    Probably another thread needed on this subject, but the money spent just to arrest, prosecute and imprison users and sellers of weed is 13B and that was 4 years ago (http://www.economics.harvard.edu/faculty/miron/files/budget_2008.pdf). You probably couldn't tax it at the % that tobacco is right now or it wouldn't cut down the illegal usage enough so you would probably be looking 15-20% extra tax on top of sales tax instead of the 75%-90% tobacco has total.

    shaunsimpson

  • shaunsimpson said...

    And in the US we kill people for success. Romney is getting killed for being a successful business man and Obama was elected after being a community organizer and a academic. Politicians being politicians is indeed a problem. You have to know how to play the game to win and those who may be the best at the jobs are not willing to put up with that.

    And I am not criticizing Obama there, but for him to understand the Heath Care Programs of this company coming from a constructional law background and community service background is almost as humorous as all of the people who bitch about it understanding it. Things like this have so many variables per state that it is impossible. Although, I do find it humorous that a constitutional law professor at a top 5 law school in the country develops a health plan that is unconstitutional.

    If the Supremes vote 5-4 against Obama, then by definition it will be deemed unconstitutional, but come on, the Supreme Court these days has very little to do with law. It's a joke to think these are nine great legal scholars. They are nine partisan hacks. Several prominent conservative legal scholars have come out and said that the mandate should be deemed constitutional.

    BucksinWA

  • sinuay said...

    Maybe we should just get rid of that dumb ass illegal president we have and start over. Go Bucks.

    Who let the tards out?

    BucksinWA

  • playmea said...

    To piggyback on what (I believe) shaunsimpson is saying, Americans and professional politicians are quite gifted at marginalizing the political aptitude of our best and brightest. They have successfully created an atmosphere that perpetuates career politicians and demonizing private experience. The irony is that these are the very same individuals who complain about career politicians.

    Forcing poeple into public service isn't exactly freedom though is it? We can't compromize what makes us great simply so we can force people with the most aptitude to lead us against their will.

    Instead, we should devise better and smarter methods of incentivizing.

    Thomas Jefferson HATED HATED HATED being a politician. And was constantly trying to avoid it. He used much of his own wealth to pay for a great deal of things. And he gained very little from public life. The only reason he did it was because he cared so much. Today, we simply can't do that. There are no people like that. And the few that try to be, we discredit them.

    Absolutely. What's funny is that politicians succeed at convincing the American people that you need experience to be good at that job. I'm pretty sure I could master it in about an hour.

    Me, doing OJT as a Congressman: "I vote yes, no, no, yes and yes on those five bills, Mr. Speaker."

    Done. Pay me.

    BucksinWA

  • Democracy is not ideal however it is better than any alternative - look at the world economies from Greece to N. Korea all are much worse than our form of government. Term limits would help curb some of the policies that have been passed and are weighing down our economy.

    dustyrhodes

  • You guys can argue all you want with this comment, but when the Founding Fathers were making the constitution, they discussed how they believed this type of constitution would work for around 200 years. Well 231 years after the constitution has been made, where are we?

    chunkfat8

  • dustyrhodes said...

    Democracy is not ideal however it is better than any alternative - look at the world economies from Greece to N. Korea all are much worse than our form of government. Term limits would help curb some of the policies that have been passed and are weighing down our economy.

    Democracy is in no way a better alternative. The Greeks discovered the inherent flaw of Democracy. The only true beauty of Democracy was it provided the stepping stones of modern government.

    Essentially a Democracy is mob rule. But the public is too uninformed and too self absorbed. Thats why it fails. A true Democracy can never be depended upon. It would run a country and or civilization into shambles.

    A Republic, however, is IMO the greatest alternative. Coincidentally, the United States is a Republic.

    signature image

    60% of the time, it works every time...

    playmea

  • chunkfat8 said...

    You guys can argue all you want with this comment, but when the Founding Fathers were making the constitution, they discussed how they believed this type of constitution would work for around 200 years. Well 231 years after the constitution has been made, where are we?

    You were there???

    This constitution was designed to be broad in scope and all encompassing. It was designed to be a living document. It was designed to evolve and be amended. The reason was so that it could stand the test of time.

    signature image

    60% of the time, it works every time...

    playmea

  • So I think the biggest problem we face is not the President, whoever he might be at the time, or even the Senate. But the House of Representatives is an entrenched club whose members seldom face any real check from the electorate. I saw a recent study that showed that there are really less than 100 House elections in any year that are even remotely competitive. And, the redistricting each four years only seems to work to entrench the incumbents even more. red Districts become redder, blue Districts become bluer. As a result, they can be as obstructionist and partisan as they want.

    My solution is that in every State, the redistricting should be done by an independent, non-partisan (to the extent possible) panel. They should operate under the instruction that Congressional Districts should be as compact and close to "rectangular" as possible. We won't get it perfect, but we can do a lot better than we do right now.

    The best term limits are competitive elections. That way, Congresscritters have to try to represent everybody, not just their own base of support.

    wellesleybuck

  • I think the Founding Fathers were brilliant. That their vision established the foundation of the greatest country the world has ever known, and that it is still true two hundred years later, is truly remarkable. That doesn't mean there's not room for improvement, or that the document was perfect.

    But could you imagine trying to get members of Congress to put something together like this today?

    BucksinWA