-
BucksinWA said...
The fact that you titled your thread "Christians please read this" says a lot. You didn't invite Jews or Muslims to read it.
I know this is the tactic taken by Christians these days, to pretend you are the ones who are persecuted, and to revise history and pretend the Founding Fathers didn't intend for the United States NOT to be a Christian nation, when in fact it was understood to be fact for over two hundred years.
The Constitution was written, and has been interpreted many times since, to intend just what you Christians hate- to separate your nonsensical religious dogma from our public lives. I do not wish to live under your religious values or anyone else's.
Also, to pretend we don't already live under the religious persecution of Christian values is absurd. Why is gay marriage illegal in all red states and most states overall? Why is a woman's right to choose under constant attack from conservatives? What is Rick Santorum, a bonafide Presidential candidate, talking about day after day? Why are the dying unable to escape their suffering with dignity in most states?
Answer: Christianity, and religion in general.
You already run most of the country and make most of the rules yet can't stand that anyone who doesn't share your beliefs be allowed the freedom of their own.
The world will be a better place when we have evolved past the need for religion, something man invented thousands of years ago to explain things we couldn't explain at the time, to maintain social order and to control the masses.
Christians would gladly return to the days of the Inquisition or the Crusades, and in fact in parts of the world where there are no documents with the power of the U.S. Constitution, routinely continue to slaughter those who don't believe.
Try reading another book sometime. You'll be surprised at how enlightening it can be.
This post was edited by nordy1 on 2/24/2012 at 9:55 PM
-
BucksinWA said...
The fact that you titled your thread "Christians please read this" says a lot. You didn't invite Jews or Muslims to read it.
I know this is the tactic taken by Christians these days, to pretend you are the ones who are persecuted, and to revise history and pretend the Founding Fathers didn't intend for the United States NOT to be a Christian nation, when in fact it was understood to be fact for over two hundred years.
The Constitution was written, and has been interpreted many times since, to intend just what you Christians hate- to separate your nonsensical religious dogma from our public lives. I do not wish to live under your religious values or anyone else's.
Also, to pretend we don't already live under the religious persecution of Christian values is absurd. Why is gay marriage illegal in all red states and most states overall? Why is a woman's right to choose under constant attack from conservatives? What is Rick Santorum, a bonafide Presidential candidate, talking about day after day? Why are the dying unable to escape their suffering with dignity in most states?
Answer: Christianity, and religion in general.
You already run most of the country and make most of the rules yet can't stand that anyone who doesn't share your beliefs be allowed the freedom of their own.
The world will be a better place when we have evolved past the need for religion, something man invented thousands of years ago to explain things we couldn't explain at the time, to maintain social order and to control the masses.
Christians would gladly return to the days of the Inquisition or the Crusades, and in fact in parts of the world where there are no documents with the power of the U.S. Constitution, routinely continue to slaughter those who don't believe.
Try reading another book sometime. You'll be surprised at how enlightening it can be.
-
BucksinWA said...
The people you know who spent their lives in prison for speaking the name of Jesus weren't in the United States when that happened to them. My guess is that they were "spreading the word and the good book" somewhere where it wasn't welcome. That is a horrendous fate for them and I wish it weren't so.
Because of the Constitution, that doesn't happen here. It is perhaps one of the tenets of the Constitution that was most remarkable.
I agree with you that the intent of the Constitution is to allow everyone to worship as they see fit, but sorry, I cannot live by MY value system under the oppression of Christian values. That should not be the case under our Constitution, but it is reality and those of us who don't believe deal with it, but forgive us for being annoyed that Christians have had their way since the conception of this country yet like to pretend they are the ones being persecuted. Courts are usually just applying the Constitution to a specific case, but when that happens Christians see it as being persecuted.
Religion provides a modicum of positive effects in our country, but overall is the most destructive force in the history of the world (which is billions of years, by the way, not 6000). Religion has always been and remains opposed to science and reason and is the cause of unspeakable crimes against children and humanity.
We aren't going to convince the other of the error of his or her ways. I am just exercising one of the few freedoms Christians can't stop the rest of us from having in this country: the freedom of speech.
-
ng164300 said...
Seperation of church and state came from letters between Thomas Jefferson and the Baptist leaders. The Baptists complained that the government favored other sects of Christianity over theirs and that if the right to freedom of religion came from the government then the govt could always regulate it. The supreme court read these letters and used them to conclude that the govt must have a barrier between it and religion or some form of favoratism or discrimination would inevitably occur. http://www.leaderu.com/common/sepchurchstate.html I don't want my life ruled by the dictates of the religious. If the government allies with one certain religion then everybody else loses their freedom. If our govt let Scientologists or Mormons make the laws I bet you would appreciate the value of seperation of church and state.
-
BucksinWA said...
The people you know who spent their lives in prison for speaking the name of Jesus weren't in the United States when that happened to them. My guess is that they were "spreading the word and the good book" somewhere where it wasn't welcome. That is a horrendous fate for them and I wish it weren't so.
Because of the Constitution, that doesn't happen here. It is perhaps one of the tenets of the Constitution that was most remarkable.
I agree with you that the intent of the Constitution is to allow everyone to worship as they see fit, but sorry, I cannot live by MY value system under the oppression of Christian values. That should not be the case under our Constitution, but it is reality and those of us who don't believe deal with it, but forgive us for being annoyed that Christians have had their way since the conception of this country yet like to pretend they are the ones being persecuted. Courts are usually just applying the Constitution to a specific case, but when that happens Christians see it as being persecuted.
Religion provides a modicum of positive effects in our country, but overall is the most destructive force in the history of the world (which is billions of years, by the way, not 6000). Religion has always been and remains opposed to science and reason and is the cause of unspeakable crimes against children and humanity.
We aren't going to convince the other of the error of his or her ways. I am just exercising one of the few freedoms Christians can't stop the rest of us from having in this country: the freedom of speech.
-
nordy1 said...
The phrase "separation of Church and State" is a common and accepted idea by many Americans today. That for me personally, I find offensive and frightening! The tough reality is many Americans, if not a majority, have never read the Constitution or have any idea about our founding, and the experiences that the founding fathers were drawing from it in their pursuit to establish a free republic in which the rights of the individual were protected by law.
Their experiences with Kings and Tyrants was all to fresh in their minds, who many before them, had fled from State run Churches like the Church of England among others and the influence it had on all people of the Colonies. and if and when when you did not prescribe to the state run Church you were prosecuted and sometimes killed. They wanted to frame the constitution not to prevent people from practicing freely their faith but not to allow the State to Establish a Church, to establish a religion in which it would be the only acceptable and practiced religion, and if you chose to be something other than what the State had established as the Church there would be persecution.
The idea that Christians or any other religious person must leave their faith at the door of public service is insane, and should never be adopted. That to the core is not who you are and in my opinion is a violation of your rights to practice your faith. It doesn't mean you are going to take your particular faith and force others to abide by it, of course not. What it does mean is that the source that shapes and establishes your core beliefs remain intact, as it should! I am not going to change who I am under the disguise of political correctness to violate my constitutional rights. If someone does not agree with their values or their political stances you simply don't vote for them!
Where does the separation of Church and State come from? Lets first examine the Constitution, the most significant writing outside of the Bible.
1st Amendment " Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, or abridging the freedom of speech, or the press, or the right of the people to peaceably assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances."
If the argument is that there is and literal separation so that Christians could not practice their faith in service than what do we do with the practices of the original fathers many of whom were in service.
George Washington - "It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and the Bible."
Thomas Jefferson - " The Bible is the cornerstone of liberty.....Students perusal of the sacred volume will make us better citizens, better fathers, and better husbands."
Andrew Jackson - "That Book [The Bible] is the rock on which our Republic rests."
Ulysses S. Grant - "Hold fast to the Bible.... To the influence of this Book we are indeed indebted for all the progress made in true civilization and to this we must look as our guide in the future."
It is all in our history, the faith and practices of many our founding fathers, and historical Presidents, and the living example they gave us of the intent in how it should be interpreted.
Now let's look at "The separation of Church and State"
This phrase was never mentioned in the Congressional Record from June 7th to September 25th, 1789, the period that documents the months of discussion and debates of the 90 men who framed the 1st amendment. Had separation been the intent of the 1st amendment, it seems logical that the phrase would have been mentioned at least once.
The phrase separation of Church and State was not even penned until 1802, 13 years after the passage of the 1st amendment, in a personal letter to a group of Baptist Pastors in Danbury, Connecticut, Thomas Jefferson who was not one of the 90 framers used the phrase to assure that the pastors of the newly formed federal government would not establish a specific denomination of Christianity. Referring to the limit of the federal government from exercising any authority in religious matters. The framers were careful to phrase the 1st amendment in such a way to guarantee that the Church and State were to be separate and distinct, yet having cooperation one with the other, not to establish a religion but that, the two would work together for a better America.
The phrase separation of Church and State was was not used to the detriment of people of faith until the Supreme Court picked it up in 1947 Everson v. Board of Education. But yet other rulings make it very clear -
1952 Zoarach v. Clauson: " the first amendment does not say that in every and all respects there shall be a separation between Church and State.... We find no constitutional requirement which makes it necessary for government to be hostile to religion and to throw it's weight against efforts to widen the effective scope of religious influence."
1985 Wallace v. Jafree: " The wall of separation between Church and State is a metaphor based on bad history, a metaphor which has proved useless as a guide to judging. it should be frankly and explicitly abandoned.
There are many other references to further demonstrate the framers intent and the upholding of their opinions. But to me one of the most frightening places concerning this phrase comes from a source that I believe has been deceptively introduced to our modern day thinkers.
1936 Constitution of the U.S.S.R. Fundamental rights and duties of citizens - Article 124 " In order to ensure citizens freedom of conscience, the church in the U.S.S.R. is separated from the state, and the school from the church, freedom of religious worship and freedom of anti religious propaganda is recognized for all citizens."
I know and have known pastors who lived in the old Soviet Union some who were taken in the middle of the night and never seen again! many thrown in prison and some murdered! I am a Pastor myself and I cringe as I see our constitutional rights being abused because we take not the time to study history!
let us all, everyone always love our fellow man and encourage the liberties of free men, as we each express our own faiths, christian or not freely! God Bless America!
This post was edited by Pirate Buckeye on 2/24/2012 at 11:28 PM
"Give Me Liberty or Give Me Death!"
Pirate Buckeye
- 5 stars Rating: 90
90 votes total - (158)
- 25 months
- Send Message
- Follow User
- Ignore User
- 5 stars
-
BucksinWA said...
I am not trying to disrespect you, Nordy. I don't know you. I don't respect faith, but I respect the right of everyone to have it and express it. I only know a couple of atheists, actually, so my inner circle is actually comprised mainly of devout Christians. That's what gets me about it. I don't know anyone personally who would lead a Crusade or punish a non-believer. They want to live and let live.
Where it comes into play, though, is in the election of our leaders. President Bush was a "Christian" and was the "pro-life" President. Because he wouldn't kill an embryo? What about the executions he oversaw under a corrupt and incompetent Texas judicial system? Or the hundred thousand civilians he killed in a war he started because he got the go-ahead from "a higher Father" than his own?
Rick Santorum is homophobic. As President of the United States he would try to see to it that an entire class of United Citizens is discriminated against. Is there anything more un-American or unconstitutional than that? And what is this hatred of a class of people based on, this need to insert himself into the affairs of others and deny them their rights? I'll take religion for $1000, Alex. Religion teaches hate and intolerance. I am not saying you do, and I know all religions or all churches or all religious leaders don't do it, but that is where it comes from. People like Pat Robertson take pride in being the source of such hatred and vitriol, as they claim that they know the path to God. I have nothing but contempt for his lot.
This post was edited by nordy1 on 2/25/2012 at 12:02 AM
-
Pirate Buckeye said...
Nordy1 this is an excellent explanation of the 1st Amendment in regards to the Separation of Church and State. I wish more of the masses would understand the 1st Amendment and not believe everything the see on TV. Ultimately the way the 1st Amendment was set up was to keep the US from becoming a Theocracy, like most of the European nations were at that time, and like most of the Middle East is now, that was all nothing more nothing less.
-
ng164300 said...
When a politician brings their religion into their politics they are automatically discriminating against all of those who don't follow their religion. They are virtually guaranteed to push their religious beliefs over someone else's religous beliefs. The more power religious people get the more freedom the rest of us lose.
-
nordy1 said...
The phrase "separation of Church and State" is a common and accepted idea by many Americans today. That for me personally, I find offensive and frightening! The tough reality is many Americans, if not a majority, have never read the Constitution or have any idea about our founding, and the experiences that the founding fathers were drawing from it in their pursuit to establish a free republic in which the rights of the individual were protected by law.
Their experiences with Kings and Tyrants was all to fresh in their minds, who many before them, had fled from State run Churches like the Church of England among others and the influence it had on all people of the Colonies. and if and when when you did not prescribe to the state run Church you were prosecuted and sometimes killed. They wanted to frame the constitution not to prevent people from practicing freely their faith but not to allow the State to Establish a Church, to establish a religion in which it would be the only acceptable and practiced religion, and if you chose to be something other than what the State had established as the Church there would be persecution.
The idea that Christians or any other religious person must leave their faith at the door of public service is insane, and should never be adopted. That to the core is not who you are and in my opinion is a violation of your rights to practice your faith. It doesn't mean you are going to take your particular faith and force others to abide by it, of course not. What it does mean is that the source that shapes and establishes your core beliefs remain intact, as it should! I am not going to change who I am under the disguise of political correctness to violate my constitutional rights. If someone does not agree with their values or their political stances you simply don't vote for them!
Where does the separation of Church and State come from? Lets first examine the Constitution, the most significant writing outside of the Bible.
1st Amendment " Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, or abridging the freedom of speech, or the press, or the right of the people to peaceably assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances."
If the argument is that there is and literal separation so that Christians could not practice their faith in service than what do we do with the practices of the original fathers many of whom were in service.
George Washington - "It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and the Bible."
Thomas Jefferson - " The Bible is the cornerstone of liberty.....Students perusal of the sacred volume will make us better citizens, better fathers, and better husbands."
Andrew Jackson - "That Book [The Bible] is the rock on which our Republic rests."
Ulysses S. Grant - "Hold fast to the Bible.... To the influence of this Book we are indeed indebted for all the progress made in true civilization and to this we must look as our guide in the future."
It is all in our history, the faith and practices of many our founding fathers, and historical Presidents, and the living example they gave us of the intent in how it should be interpreted.
Now let's look at "The separation of Church and State"
This phrase was never mentioned in the Congressional Record from June 7th to September 25th, 1789, the period that documents the months of discussion and debates of the 90 men who framed the 1st amendment. Had separation been the intent of the 1st amendment, it seems logical that the phrase would have been mentioned at least once.
The phrase separation of Church and State was not even penned until 1802, 13 years after the passage of the 1st amendment, in a personal letter to a group of Baptist Pastors in Danbury, Connecticut, Thomas Jefferson who was not one of the 90 framers used the phrase to assure that the pastors of the newly formed federal government would not establish a specific denomination of Christianity. Referring to the limit of the federal government from exercising any authority in religious matters. The framers were careful to phrase the 1st amendment in such a way to guarantee that the Church and State were to be separate and distinct, yet having cooperation one with the other, not to establish a religion but that, the two would work together for a better America.
The phrase separation of Church and State was was not used to the detriment of people of faith until the Supreme Court picked it up in 1947 Everson v. Board of Education. But yet other rulings make it very clear -
1952 Zoarach v. Clauson: " the first amendment does not say that in every and all respects there shall be a separation between Church and State.... We find no constitutional requirement which makes it necessary for government to be hostile to religion and to throw it's weight against efforts to widen the effective scope of religious influence."
1985 Wallace v. Jafree: " The wall of separation between Church and State is a metaphor based on bad history, a metaphor which has proved useless as a guide to judging. it should be frankly and explicitly abandoned.
There are many other references to further demonstrate the framers intent and the upholding of their opinions. But to me one of the most frightening places concerning this phrase comes from a source that I believe has been deceptively introduced to our modern day thinkers.
1936 Constitution of the U.S.S.R. Fundamental rights and duties of citizens - Article 124 " In order to ensure citizens freedom of conscience, the church in the U.S.S.R. is separated from the state, and the school from the church, freedom of religious worship and freedom of anti religious propaganda is recognized for all citizens."
I know and have known pastors who lived in the old Soviet Union some who were taken in the middle of the night and never seen again! many thrown in prison and some murdered! I am a Pastor myself and I cringe as I see our constitutional rights being abused because we take not the time to study history!
let us all, everyone always love our fellow man and encourage the liberties of free men, as we each express our own faiths, christian or not freely! God Bless America!
Badger Alumni, Lifelong Buckeye.
Frozen Buckeye
- 5 stars Rating: 83
656 votes total - (854)
- 28 months
- Send Message
- Follow User
- Ignore User
-
Frozen Buckeye said...
Really? It's days like this that I wonder whether it's a good idea to give anyone who doesn't have a JD, or a similar level of understanding of law, politics and the constitution, the right to vote. Do you even really understand the establishment clause and it's real effect in law, or did you just want to take this opportunity to spout pro-christian drivel and hope that anyone within shouting distance would listen? It's bullshit like this that makes the rest of the Christians who aren't part of the lunatic fringe look like a bunch of morons when they say that they are, in fact Christian.
/eyeroll
This post was edited by nordy1 on 2/25/2012 at 6:01 PM
-
ng164300 said...
The constutution is only as good as the supreme court. The interpretation of the constitution is malleable. Republicans are constantly trying to put people in the court systems who will overturn Roe v Wade, thus taking rights away from women. So the religious beliefs of politicians can take rights away from others regardless of the constitution.
-
Frozen Buckeye said...
Really? It's days like this that I wonder whether it's a good idea to give anyone who doesn't have a JD, or a similar level of understanding of law, politics and the constitution, the right to vote. Do you even really understand the establishment clause and it's real effect in law, or did you just want to take this opportunity to spout pro-christian drivel and hope that anyone within shouting distance would listen? It's bullshit like this that makes the rest of the Christians who aren't part of the lunatic fringe look like a bunch of morons when they say that they are, in fact Christian.
/eyeroll
This post was edited by nordy1 on 2/25/2012 at 7:14 PM
-
BucksinWA said...
The point that the religious don't seem to get is rooted in mutual respect.
X is religious. X doesn't believe in it. X would never have one.
Y is not religious. X believes it is a woman's right to choose.
Mutual respect would dictate that both be allowed to follow their own value systems, but that's not how it works.
If we live by Y's rules X would never have to get an abortion.
X, however, thinks no one should ever get one, whether you are raped or the victim of incest or no matter how it happens. X wants a law that would throw Y in prison if Y gets one or Dr. Y performs one.
That is not mutual respect, character or honor.
Replace abortion with gay marriage, assisted suicide, or any other issue of personal choice that is generally opposed based on religion.
This post was edited by nordy1 on 2/25/2012 at 8:18 PM
-
nordy1 said...
The Establishment clause has always been hotly debated, as well the Free exercise clause,. The Establishment clause was never interpreted by the supreme court until 1947, and there have been decisions by the supreme court since then that have been all over the place, at a minimum the establishment clause was intended to prohibit the federal government from declaring and funding a national religion. That I can agree, but to talk to people the way you did calling people morons because they don't interpret or agree with your personal interpretation of the establishment clause makes me want to seriously consider the point,that you should never vote!
Badger Alumni, Lifelong Buckeye.
Frozen Buckeye
- 5 stars Rating: 83
656 votes total - (854)
- 28 months
- Send Message
- Follow User
- Ignore User
The 1st Amendment