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The rejection of science on the right

  • (another interesting opinion piece - this one from Alternet (gasp!) )

    (let's see if any "alternate opinions" on here prove the point) :)

    As America Grows More Polarized, Conservatives Increasingly Reject Science and Rational Thought

    The Tea Party has intensified social pressure on conservative-leaning Americans to shun science and academia.

    Public education and even modern science are relatively new developments in human history. So it makes sense that it would have taken the populace a while to catch up to understanding that evolution did happen, and that angels probably aren’t real.

    But recent polling data suggests that gradual acceptance of the facts may not be the trend when it comes to the theory of evolution. In the 30 years since Gallup started asking people whether they believe humans evolved, evolved under the guidance of God, or were created fully formed by God, the percentage of people adhering to the creationist view has actually gone up slightly over time, and now stands at 46 percent of the population. This is just the tip of the iceberg of a growing problem of public rejection of science.

    At the same time, there’s been a steady rise in people who believe that humanity evolved without any supernatural guidance, and now stands at 15 percent. What this seeming conflict suggests is that the issue is getting more polarized, as people feel they either have to pick Team Evolution or Team Creationism.

    It turns out that education isn’t enough to fight ignorance, not when it comes to heavily politicized issues like evolutionary theory. As Chris Mooney argues in his book The Republican Brain, political identity generally trumps sober-minded assessment of the facts when it comes to convincing people of an argument or idea. The theory of evolution isn’t being rejected on its merits by the people who don't buy it. It really can’t be by someone who is honestly assessing the evidence.

    The Tea Party has only intensified social pressure on conservative-leaning Americans to shun anything perceived as irreligious or academic. Science has always had a political edge to it, but the culture wars ramped up by the Tea Party have taken the problem to a whole new level.

    The past decade-plus have turned science from a mostly politically neutral issue into a heavily partisan one, with Republicans becoming the party of anti-science while Democrats increasingly tout their dedication to research and evidence-based policy. According to a study published in American Sociological Review, since 1974, conservative trust in science has been in a free-fall, declining 25 percent. In 1974, conservatives were the most pro-science group, higher than liberals and moderates. Now they’re the least pro-science group of all, with liberals showing the most trust in science.

    People who frequently attend church were the most likely to lose their trust in science, reinforcing the cultural sense that faith precludes acceptance of religious facts.

    Evolution is hardly the only scientific reality to suffer from conservatives' growing sense that their ideology is not compatible with science. In the short period between 2010 and 2012, the percentage of conservatives who accept global warming declined from half of conservatives to only 30 percent of them. That doesn’t reflect any kind of major shift in the evidence or the arguments around global warming--the scientific consensus that warming is happening and human-made has only solidified in the past couple of decades--so much as the strengthened perception that conservatism and believing in global warming are mutually exclusive. As the political media pays more attention to conservative distrust of science and liberal embrace of it, the image of who believes what will only intensify.

    Climate change is strongly associated in the public mind, rightly or wrongly, with anti-capitalism. The theory of evolution faces a similar problem, especially as it’s routinely linked by religious and other thought leaders with a kind of subversive atheism. These kind of identity politics that create doubt about science have immediate negative impacts for all of us, especially with regards to global warming, but as with many things pushed by conservatives, working class and poor people are likely to pay the greatest price. Any liberal who focuses on economic issues should pay close attention, because in many ways, the war on science is a war on the most vulnerable among us.

    The public’s resistance to evolution might not seem like a big deal at first, since the main result of conservative activism is that high school biology programs give up teaching evolution, while universities retain their evidence-based curriculum. In fact, Kevin Drum argued in Mother Jones that creationism in schools didn’t really matter because, “knowledge of evolution adds only slightly to a 10th-grade understanding of biology.”

    The problem with that is that someone who doesn’t get proper education early tends to lag behind for the rest of their educational career, and the 10th-grader who doesn’t get real biology courses will often be too far behind her better-educated peers in college to even consider a career in science. How many potential doctors and scientists are being lost because they didn’t have the economic advantage of going to a private school that did provide a proper education, but instead went to a public school that dished out creationist propaganda?

    As PZ Myers argued, the poor public education in science means that a shrinking portion of the American public is going into careers in science. Americans from working class backgrounds who go into these careers are far more likely to use their education and career contacts to return to their communities and improve the economic and health conditions back home. But with these declining numbers of American scientists, that possibility is being shut down.

    The public’s rejection of global warming is even more dangerous for working class and poor people. It’s well-understood that poorer people bear the brunt of environmental destruction, since they can’t afford to move out of polluted areas that are linked to health issues like asthma and cancer. There’s no reason to think that global warming won’t create similar problems, with wealthier people abandoning areas that are now flood plains. As summers get hotter, air conditioning is going to become all the more necessary, but soaring fuel prices will start putting it out of reach for ordinary people, even as the annual death toll from heat stroke continues to climb.

    But because the media portrays climate change as “controversial”--strictly because of conservative distrust of science--most Americans are oblivious to the severity of the problem. Campaigns barely touch it, and lower-income people have even more obstacles when it comes to demanding action on this issue, because they’re usually too busy worrying about immediate economic concerns. Better science education and more trust in science could help the raise the issue higher on the priority list for all voters, but especially those who will be most affected. As it is now, it’s nearly impossible to get the conversation started.

    Science and science education feel like they’re academic issues that, while interesting and important, aren’t top-tier progressive issues like economic justice or healthcare access. But without strong social support for science, these goals will be much harder to reach, and in some cases, impossible. The high levels of scientific illiteracy in the U.S. should be as upsetting to liberals as high levels of reading illiteracy would be, and should be addressed just as seriously.

    Unit_D

  • What's "...economic justice..."?

    whvball

  • whvball said...

    What's "...economic justice..."?

    Rumor has it is that it has something to do with level playing fields.

    Equal chances at opportunity.

    Fairness.

    You know, all the stuff that cons give lip service to while they're reaming those they supposedly care so much about.

    Unit_D

  • Unit_D said...

    Rumor has it is that it has something to do with level playing fields.

    Equal chances at opportunity.

    Fairness.

    You know, all the stuff that cons give lip service to while they're reaming those they supposedly care so much about.

    My roomate in college who grew up in University Heights, Cleveland, Ohio. He lived in low income housing, had a single mom, sister was a single mom and their grandmother lived with them who was also a single mom when she was raising kids. Mom worked a part time job and other jobs when she could to help support their family. He went to college, graduated with a criminal justice degree and is now a cop in Cleveland. What's the difference between him and other kids growing up in the same conditions that end up in jail or worse?

    Maybe this kid was smart and exceptional. Maybe he got lucky? I don't know. But how did he have a drive that made him get a high school diploma, a college degree and a job, all while being a young black male with everything stacked against him? The ideas of social justice or economic justice or whatever the marxist term is now, this flies in the face of that and proves those ideaologies wrong EVERY SINGLE TIME!

    This guy who wrote the piece is fighting for evolution. But I don't think he realizes that evolution is based upon the idea that species who are able to survive, evolve and get stronger as things change around them. Species who are weak or can't evolve, die off. The idea of evolution flies everything in the face of Economic justice and Social Justice. Those call for "fairness" while evolution is Survival of the fittest.

    The antelope wakes up every day knowing he has to be faster than the fastest Lion. THe Lion wakes up every day knowing he has to be faster than the slowest antelope.

    This post was edited by whvball on 6/18/2012 at 5:06 PM

    whvball

  • Unit_D said...

    (another interesting opinion piece - this one from Alternet (gasp!) )

    (let's see if any "alternate opinions" on here prove the point) :)

    As America Grows More Polarized, Conservatives Increasingly Reject Science and Rational Thought

    The Tea Party has intensified social pressure on conservative-leaning Americans to shun science and academia.

    Public education and even modern science are relatively new developments in human history. So it makes sense that it would have taken the populace a while to catch up to understanding that evolution did happen, and that angels probably aren’t real.

    But recent polling data suggests that gradual acceptance of the facts may not be the trend when it comes to the theory of evolution. In the 30 years since Gallup started asking people whether they believe humans evolved, evolved under the guidance of God, or were created fully formed by God, the percentage of people adhering to the creationist view has actually gone up slightly over time, and now stands at 46 percent of the population. This is just the tip of the iceberg of a growing problem of public rejection of science.

    At the same time, there’s been a steady rise in people who believe that humanity evolved without any supernatural guidance, and now stands at 15 percent. What this seeming conflict suggests is that the issue is getting more polarized, as people feel they either have to pick Team Evolution or Team Creationism.

    It turns out that education isn’t enough to fight ignorance, not when it comes to heavily politicized issues like evolutionary theory. As Chris Mooney argues in his book The Republican Brain, political identity generally trumps sober-minded assessment of the facts when it comes to convincing people of an argument or idea. The theory of evolution isn’t being rejected on its merits by the people who don't buy it. It really can’t be by someone who is honestly assessing the evidence.

    The Tea Party has only intensified social pressure on conservative-leaning Americans to shun anything perceived as irreligious or academic. Science has always had a political edge to it, but the culture wars ramped up by the Tea Party have taken the problem to a whole new level.

    The past decade-plus have turned science from a mostly politically neutral issue into a heavily partisan one, with Republicans becoming the party of anti-science while Democrats increasingly tout their dedication to research and evidence-based policy. According to a study published in American Sociological Review, since 1974, conservative trust in science has been in a free-fall, declining 25 percent. In 1974, conservatives were the most pro-science group, higher than liberals and moderates. Now they’re the least pro-science group of all, with liberals showing the most trust in science.

    People who frequently attend church were the most likely to lose their trust in science, reinforcing the cultural sense that faith precludes acceptance of religious facts.

    Evolution is hardly the only scientific reality to suffer from conservatives' growing sense that their ideology is not compatible with science. In the short period between 2010 and 2012, the percentage of conservatives who accept global warming declined from half of conservatives to only 30 percent of them. That doesn’t reflect any kind of major shift in the evidence or the arguments around global warming--the scientific consensus that warming is happening and human-made has only solidified in the past couple of decades--so much as the strengthened perception that conservatism and believing in global warming are mutually exclusive. As the political media pays more attention to conservative distrust of science and liberal embrace of it, the image of who believes what will only intensify.

    Climate change is strongly associated in the public mind, rightly or wrongly, with anti-capitalism. The theory of evolution faces a similar problem, especially as it’s routinely linked by religious and other thought leaders with a kind of subversive atheism. These kind of identity politics that create doubt about science have immediate negative impacts for all of us, especially with regards to global warming, but as with many things pushed by conservatives, working class and poor people are likely to pay the greatest price. Any liberal who focuses on economic issues should pay close attention, because in many ways, the war on science is a war on the most vulnerable among us.

    The public’s resistance to evolution might not seem like a big deal at first, since the main result of conservative activism is that high school biology programs give up teaching evolution, while universities retain their evidence-based curriculum. In fact, Kevin Drum argued in Mother Jones that creationism in schools didn’t really matter because, “knowledge of evolution adds only slightly to a 10th-grade understanding of biology.”

    The problem with that is that someone who doesn’t get proper education early tends to lag behind for the rest of their educational career, and the 10th-grader who doesn’t get real biology courses will often be too far behind her better-educated peers in college to even consider a career in science. How many potential doctors and scientists are being lost because they didn’t have the economic advantage of going to a private school that did provide a proper education, but instead went to a public school that dished out creationist propaganda?

    As PZ Myers argued, the poor public education in science means that a shrinking portion of the American public is going into careers in science. Americans from working class backgrounds who go into these careers are far more likely to use their education and career contacts to return to their communities and improve the economic and health conditions back home. But with these declining numbers of American scientists, that possibility is being shut down.

    The public’s rejection of global warming is even more dangerous for working class and poor people. It’s well-understood that poorer people bear the brunt of environmental destruction, since they can’t afford to move out of polluted areas that are linked to health issues like asthma and cancer. There’s no reason to think that global warming won’t create similar problems, with wealthier people abandoning areas that are now flood plains. As summers get hotter, air conditioning is going to become all the more necessary, but soaring fuel prices will start putting it out of reach for ordinary people, even as the annual death toll from heat stroke continues to climb.

    But because the media portrays climate change as “controversial”--strictly because of conservative distrust of science--most Americans are oblivious to the severity of the problem. Campaigns barely touch it, and lower-income people have even more obstacles when it comes to demanding action on this issue, because they’re usually too busy worrying about immediate economic concerns. Better science education and more trust in science could help the raise the issue higher on the priority list for all voters, but especially those who will be most affected. As it is now, it’s nearly impossible to get the conversation started.

    Science and science education feel like they’re academic issues that, while interesting and important, aren’t top-tier progressive issues like economic justice or healthcare access. But without strong social support for science, these goals will be much harder to reach, and in some cases, impossible. The high levels of scientific illiteracy in the U.S. should be as upsetting to liberals as high levels of reading illiteracy would be, and should be addressed just as seriously.

    Ain't it a crying shame? I just talked to Mitt the other day, and he said that geocentrism should be a fundamental plank of the Republican platform in 2012. He also said the Book of Mormon should be required reading in the public schools, that Hume was right that empirical knowledge has no real philosophic foundation, and that even antiquated Aristotelian logic must be repudiated by all right-thinking people. In fact, this is just code for his psychological need to return to simpler times (the pre-pre-pre-pre-Medieval period) when superstition reigned and religionists controlled everyone and suppressed all that is good.

    Isn't it great that we live in such happier and more enlightened times, where the Democratic party and their cultural deconstructionists have given us disintegrating families, a divorce rate of approximately 50%, children born out of wedlock on an unprecedented scale, millions of unborn children aborted for the convenience of their mothers, epidemic STD rates, rampant drug abuse, rampant child abuse and widespread acceptance of perversion in the name of "tolerance?"

    1buckfaninmich

  • The point of leftist authors like this is no different than conservatives saying all liberals hate America. Most liberals do, in fact, hate America but not all.

    Most of my conservative friends are agnostic at best. A majority of my liberal friends believe in God and are church goers. What does this tell you? Nothing. People can't be lumped into pacakges to help make their feelings become facts in an attempt to persuade people to jump on the band wagon.

    People who blindly re-post shit articles like this amuse me.

    jdawg1

  • This post is for members of Bucknuts or All Access VIP members only. Start Free Trial

    sarasotabcg ●

  • 1buckfaninmich said...

    Ain't it a crying shame? I just talked to Mitt the other day, and he said that geocentrism should be a fundamental plank of the Republican platform in 2012. He also said the Book of Mormon should be required reading in the public schools, that Hume was right that empirical knowledge has no real philosophic foundation, and that even antiquated Aristotelian logic must be repudiated by all right-thinking people. In fact, this is just code for his psychological need to return to simpler times (the pre-pre-pre-pre-Medieval period) when superstition reigned and religionists controlled everyone and suppressed all that is good.

    Isn't it great that we live in such happier and more enlightened times, where the Democratic party and their cultural deconstructionists have given us disintegrating families, a divorce rate of approximately 50%, children born out of wedlock on an unprecedented scale, millions of unborn children aborted for the convenience of their mothers, epidemic STD rates, rampant drug abuse, rampant child abuse and widespread acceptance of perversion in the name of "tolerance?"

    "Isn't it great that we live in such happier and more enlightened times, where the Democratic party and their cultural deconstructionists have given us disintegrating families, a divorce rate of approximately 50%, children born out of wedlock on an unprecedented scale, millions of unborn children aborted for the convenience of their mothers, epidemic STD rates, rampant drug abuse, rampant child abuse and widespread acceptance of perversion in the name of "tolerance?""

    Wow, they did all that??

    Where was I??

    I didn't know there were still barefoot and pregnant troglodytes running around.

    But here you are. A knuckle dragger of the first order.

    Let's play "Redefine the stereotype", shall we?

    Here we go!

    Isn't it great that we live in such happier and more enlightened times, where the Republican party and their creationist neanderthals have given us the moral absolutist definition of "families", a divorce rate of approximately 50%, children born out of wedlock on an unprecedented scale, millions of women shaking with fright over back room coat hanger abortions, all for the benefit of holier than thou white males (who, if necessary, would head out of town for the "procedure" so fast it would make your head spin), epidemic STD rates, rampant drug abuse (Alabama - #1 in this category), rampant child abuse (Mississippi - #1 in this category) and widespread acceptance of perversion (the deep south reads/consumes more pornography than any other part of the country) all in the name of "family values."

    Hey, that was fun!

    Next time try and make it a bit more challenging, OK?

    Unit_D

  • jdawg1 said...

    The point of leftist authors like this is no different than conservatives saying all liberals hate America. Most liberals do, in fact, hate America but not all.

    Most of my conservative friends are agnostic at best. A majority of my liberal friends believe in God and are church goers. What does this tell you? Nothing. People can't be lumped into pacakges to help make their feelings become facts in an attempt to persuade people to jump on the band wagon.

    People who blindly re-post shit articles like this amuse me.

    I hate what America has become.

    Does that count?

    Oh, and people who say dumb-ass things like "most liberals do, in fact, hate America but not all" sadden me, because it shows how little intellectual curiosity they have.

    "We have met the enemy, and he is us."

    -Pogo-

    Unit_D

  • whvball said...

    My roomate in college who grew up in University Heights, Cleveland, Ohio. He lived in low income housing, had a single mom, sister was a single mom and their grandmother lived with them who was also a single mom when she was raising kids. Mom worked a part time job and other jobs when she could to help support their family. He went to college, graduated with a criminal justice degree and is now a cop in Cleveland. What's the difference between him and other kids growing up in the same conditions that end up in jail or worse?

    Maybe this kid was smart and exceptional. Maybe he got lucky? I don't know. But how did he have a drive that made him get a high school diploma, a college degree and a job, all while being a young black male with everything stacked against him? The ideas of social justice or economic justice or whatever the marxist term is now, this flies in the face of that and proves those ideaologies wrong EVERY SINGLE TIME!

    This guy who wrote the piece is fighting for evolution. But I don't think he realizes that evolution is based upon the idea that species who are able to survive, evolve and get stronger as things change around them. Species who are weak or can't evolve, die off. The idea of evolution flies everything in the face of Economic justice and Social Justice. Those call for "fairness" while evolution is Survival of the fittest.

    The antelope wakes up every day knowing he has to be faster than the fastest Lion. THe Lion wakes up every day knowing he has to be faster than the slowest antelope.

    OK, which group do you want to kill off?

    How about your parents?

    Siblings?

    Cousins?

    C'mon, one or more of 'em must be the weaker species.

    Let's get rid of 'em!

    Your concept of evolution as applied to a multi-faceted society is amazing.

    We are more intellectually f#$*ed than I imagined.

    Unit_D

  • Unit_D said...

    "Isn't it great that we live in such happier and more enlightened times, where the Democratic party and their cultural deconstructionists have given us disintegrating families, a divorce rate of approximately 50%, children born out of wedlock on an unprecedented scale, millions of unborn children aborted for the convenience of their mothers, epidemic STD rates, rampant drug abuse, rampant child abuse and widespread acceptance of perversion in the name of "tolerance?""

    Wow, they did all that??

    Where was I??

    I didn't know there were still barefoot and pregnant troglodytes running around.

    But here you are. A knuckle dragger of the first order.

    Let's play "Redefine the stereotype", shall we?

    Here we go!

    Isn't it great that we live in such happier and more enlightened times, where the Republican party and their creationist neanderthals have given us the moral absolutist definition of "families", a divorce rate of approximately 50%, children born out of wedlock on an unprecedented scale, millions of women shaking with fright over back room coat hanger abortions, all for the benefit of holier than thou white males (who, if necessary, would head out of town for the "procedure" so fast it would make your head spin), epidemic STD rates, rampant drug abuse (Alabama - #1 in this category), rampant child abuse (Mississippi - #1 in this category) and widespread acceptance of perversion (the deep south reads/consumes more pornography than any other part of the country) all in the name of "family values."

    Hey, that was fun!

    Next time try and make it a bit more challenging, OK?

    Where were you? Anywhere but America, or any place that enabled you to see with any moral clarity. And, anyone who could post an article such as the above as a serious piece is either: a) so dull as to be incapable of understanding or b) so smug that their insularity entirely negates their ability to comprehend others who do not share their misguided ideological commitments.

    Throw in a little regional bigotry with the above and a willingness to shed the blood of millions at the sacred altar of "choice" (and some other unnamed, vile ingredients) and the product is: Unut D. I wouldn't call that recipe "fun," but then one must at least identify the offensive ingredients in order to expunge the stench, wouldn't you say?

    1buckfaninmich

  • 1buckfaninmich said...

    Where were you? Anywhere but America, or any place that enabled you to see with any moral clarity. And, anyone who could post an article such as the above as a serious piece is either: a) so dull as to be incapable of understanding or b) so smug that their insularity entirely negates their ability to comprehend others who do not share their misguided ideological commitments.

    Throw in a little regional bigotry with the above and a willingness to shed the blood of millions at the sacred altar of "choice" (and some other unnamed, vile ingredients) and the product is: Unut D. I wouldn't call that recipe "fun," but then one must at least identify the offensive ingredients in order to expunge the stench, wouldn't you say?

    Just so you don't think it was Unit_D, I DVed that tripe.

    Yeah, I said it.

    shalvoy

  • whvball said...

    My roomate in college who grew up in University Heights, Cleveland, Ohio. He lived in low income housing, had a single mom, sister was a single mom and their grandmother lived with them who was also a single mom when she was raising kids. Mom worked a part time job and other jobs when she could to help support their family. He went to college, graduated with a criminal justice degree and is now a cop in Cleveland. What's the difference between him and other kids growing up in the same conditions that end up in jail or worse?

    Maybe this kid was smart and exceptional. Maybe he got lucky? I don't know. But how did he have a drive that made him get a high school diploma, a college degree and a job, all while being a young black male with everything stacked against him? The ideas of social justice or economic justice or whatever the marxist term is now, this flies in the face of that and proves those ideaologies wrong EVERY SINGLE TIME!

    This guy who wrote the piece is fighting for evolution. But I don't think he realizes that evolution is based upon the idea that species who are able to survive, evolve and get stronger as things change around them. Species who are weak or can't evolve, die off. The idea of evolution flies everything in the face of Economic justice and Social Justice. Those call for "fairness" while evolution is Survival of the fittest.

    The antelope wakes up every day knowing he has to be faster than the fastest Lion. THe Lion wakes up every day knowing he has to be faster than the slowest antelope.

    Those who make it do so because of dozens of variables. Those who don't do so because of the same variables but "success" as with your roommate just doesn't come together. We do know that with good education and the proper guidance that we can raise the number of successes, but not on a massive level. One factor that I have never seen a conservative mention, nor that many libs for that matter, is the fact that no matter what we do to help or if all "poor" got the right motivation on their own - only a small number would make it because there is only so much room above them. It is as if each rung of the ladder is smaller and will hold fewer and fewer the higher you go.

    So if all the "poor" had the right aptitude, attitude, etc. as your roommate did, not all could move up because there are just not enough jobs higher up. Most companies job charts are in the shape of a triangle, lowest paying/fewest needed skills jobs are more numerous then better paying jobs requiring more skills. The same is true if you consider the entire job market as a single entity.

    While we cannot change basic aptitude by more than 20% (the other 80% being genetic), many times improving aptitude by anywhere near 20% is enough to get the kid to the next rung of the ladder. Education is one area that helps the poor. In fact unemployment for those who are 25 years old and have at least a college degree just feel BELOW 4% last month. This is while the overall unemployment hit 8.2%.

    Evolution is a naturally occurring phenomena that we see in all living things. However the natural environment can be radically changed or manipulated in a way that greatly affects evolution. The definition of the fittest changes as the environment changes. And as you said, those species which do not evolve die out. Sometimes the change in the natural environment can be great enough to destroy whole species in a single generation. Most scientist think that it was a giant meteor hitting the earth which caused the extinction of the dinosaurs.
    Humans have evolved into the dominant species and can now effect the environment to such an extent that it can cause the extinction of other species.

    IMO you are mistaken that Economic and/or Social Justice flies in the face of evolution. Why do you think those concepts are Marxist and fly in the face of evolution? I would suggest that those hypothetical constructs are actually higher level functioning of an evolved species, that being we humans. The tenets of evolution as observed in nature can be used to look at the evolution of not just the physicalness and intellectual development of humans but also those things which humans create. Societies evolve which is why we talk about the developing countries. This societal evolution takes into its definition all parts of society and these parts are also evolving. Forms of governments evolve, technology evolves etc. Those things created by humans evolve, not as the fittest, but as the most helpful to humans.

    There appears to be innate drives in humans for certain abstract things which go beyond the basic needs for survival. A psychologist named Maslow, developed a model of a hierarchy of needs in the 1940s & 50s; see link below if interested. I did a class project in graduate school in which I took Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs and redid it in societal terms. Constructs such as individual freedom, social justice, fairness, etc. were at the top of a hierarchy for societies.

    I like your last sentence but I think the first part is not quite right.

    Two hunters, Tim and Ryan, had just come out of their tents when they heard a roar and turned to see a grizzly bear charging full speed at them from about 200 feet away.
    Tim yelled "Run" and took off with Ryan just a few steps behind.
    As they ran Ryan called to Tim, "Do you really think you can outrun that bear?"
    Tim responded over his shoulder, "Hell no, but I don't have to outrun it. I just have to outrun you."

    Though often asked, God does not take sides in politics or college football.

    TimMcM

  • Unit_D said...

    OK, which group do you want to kill off?

    How about your parents?

    Siblings?

    Cousins?

    C'mon, one or more of 'em must be the weaker species.

    Let's get rid of 'em!

    Your concept of evolution as applied to a multi-faceted society is amazing.

    We are more intellectually f#$*ed than I imagined.

    I think you missed the point. Individuals can be exceptional, excellent or great. The ideas of Social Justice, Economic Justice, Marxism, etc all lead to one thing. Fairness to an extreme degree in which those things that make our country great, can't be reached.

    "..from each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs..." I would say this would be a core thought in any progressive ideology. It looks great in theory but in reality, no matter what your ability you stay the same. No matter what your needs, they are decided for you.

    This post was edited by whvball on 6/19/2012 at 7:41 AM

    whvball

  • TimMcM said...

    Those who make it do so because of dozens of variables. Those who don't do so because of the same variables but "success" as with your roommate just doesn't come together. We do know that with good education and the proper guidance that we can raise the number of successes, but not on a massive level. One factor that I have never seen a conservative mention, nor that many libs for that matter, is the fact that no matter what we do to help or if all "poor" got the right motivation on their own - only a small number would make it because there is only so much room above them. It is as if each rung of the ladder is smaller and will hold fewer and fewer the higher you go.

    So if all the "poor" had the right aptitude, attitude, etc. as your roommate did, not all could move up because there are just not enough jobs higher up. Most companies job charts are in the shape of a triangle, lowest paying/fewest needed skills jobs are more numerous then better paying jobs requiring more skills. The same is true if you consider the entire job market as a single entity.

    While we cannot change basic aptitude by more than 20% (the other 80% being genetic), many times improving aptitude by anywhere near 20% is enough to get the kid to the next rung of the ladder. Education is one area that helps the poor. In fact unemployment for those who are 25 years old and have at least a college degree just feel BELOW 4% last month. This is while the overall unemployment hit 8.2%.

    Evolution is a naturally occurring phenomena that we see in all living things. However the natural environment can be radically changed or manipulated in a way that greatly affects evolution. The definition of the fittest changes as the environment changes. And as you said, those species which do not evolve die out. Sometimes the change in the natural environment can be great enough to destroy whole species in a single generation. Most scientist think that it was a giant meteor hitting the earth which caused the extinction of the dinosaurs. Humans have evolved into the dominant species and can now effect the environment to such an extent that it can cause the extinction of other species.

    IMO you are mistaken that Economic and/or Social Justice flies in the face of evolution. Why do you think those concepts are Marxist and fly in the face of evolution? I would suggest that those hypothetical constructs are actually higher level functioning of an evolved species, that being we humans. The tenets of evolution as observed in nature can be used to look at the evolution of not just the physicalness and intellectual development of humans but also those things which humans create. Societies evolve which is why we talk about the developing countries. This societal evolution takes into its definition all parts of society and these parts are also evolving. Forms of governments evolve, technology evolves etc. Those things created by humans evolve, not as the fittest, but as the most helpful to humans.

    There appears to be innate drives in humans for certain abstract things which go beyond the basic needs for survival. A psychologist named Maslow, developed a model of a hierarchy of needs in the 1940s & 50s; see link below if interested. I did a class project in graduate school in which I took Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs and redid it in societal terms. Constructs such as individual freedom, social justice, fairness, etc. were at the top of a hierarchy for societies.

    I like your last sentence but I think the first part is not quite right.

    Two hunters, Tim and Ryan, had just come out of their tents when they heard a roar and turned to see a grizzly bear charging full speed at them from about 200 feet away. Tim yelled "Run" and took off with Ryan just a few steps behind. As they ran Ryan called to Tim, "Do you really think you can outrun that bear?" Tim responded over his shoulder, "Hell no, but I don't have to outrun it. I just have to outrun you."

    I like your story better than mine!

    Life is a little like sports and it's like your story. If you put Tim and Ryan in a company, using their abilities of intelligence and smartness (word?), one would be higher up in the company than the other. Even if they had the same job, one would be better at it than the other. That's the way it is, that is why the people higher up the food chain, make more money. Their abilities of making something successful is better than the people below them.

    It's why some coaches are successful and some fail. It's why I'm not 6'8, 250 lbs of pure athleticism like Lebron. Nature isn't fair.

    whvball

  • s whvball said...

    My roomate in college who grew up in University Heights, Cleveland, Ohio. He lived in low income housing, had a single mom, sister was a single mom and their grandmother lived with them who was also a single mom when she was raising kids. Mom worked a part time job and other jobs when she could to help support their family. He went to college, graduated with a criminal justice degree and is now a cop in Cleveland. What's the difference between him and other kids growing up in the same conditions that end up in jail or worse?

    Maybe this kid was smart and exceptional. Maybe he got lucky? I don't know. But how did he have a drive that made him get a high school diploma, a college degree and a job, all while being a young black male with everything stacked against him? The ideas of social justice or economic justice or whatever the marxist term is now, this flies in the face of that and proves those ideaologies wrong EVERY SINGLE TIME!

    This guy who wrote the piece is fighting for evolution. But I don't think he realizes that evolution is based upon the idea that species who are able to survive, evolve and get stronger as things change around them. Species who are weak or can't evolve, die off. The idea of evolution flies everything in the face of Economic justice and Social Justice. Those call for "fairness" while evolution is Survival of the fittest.

    The antelope wakes up every day knowing he has to be faster than the fastest Lion. THe Lion wakes up every day knowing he has to be faster than the slowest antelope.

    First, this post was about the conservative denial of science. Second, every person is different. If you have kids you would know that.

    dave1954

  • jdawg1 said...

    The point of leftist authors like this is no different than conservatives saying all liberals hate America. Most liberals do, in fact, hate America but not all.

    Most of my conservative friends are agnostic at best. A majority of my liberal friends believe in God and are church goers. What does this tell you? Nothing. People can't be lumped into pacakges to help make their feelings become facts in an attempt to persuade people to jump on the band wagon.

    People who blindly re-post shit articles like this amuse me.

    How is it that most of your Lib friends go to church and believe in God but hate this country? Looks like you lumped people into packages!

    dave1954

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    dave1954

  • Unit_D said...

    I hate what America has become.

    Does that count?

    Oh, and people who say dumb-ass things like "most liberals do, in fact, hate America but not all" sadden me, because it shows how little intellectual curiosity they have.

    "We have met the enemy, and he is us."

    -Pogo-

    And the article you started this thread with begins with....

    "As America Grows More Polarized, Conservatives Increasingly Reject Science and Rational Thought

    The Tea Party has intensified social pressure on conservative-leaning Americans to shun science and academia."

    AtlantaBuck

  • shalvoy said...

    Just so you don't think it was Unit_D, I DVed that tripe.

    Glad you found it offensive. I hope it improves your psychological disposition to know that there are people like me, serving "tripe" to people like you, on a daily basis. Enjoy!

    1buckfaninmich

  • 1buckfaninmich said...

    Glad you found it offensive. I hope it improves your psychological disposition to know that there are people like me, serving "tripe" to people like you, on a daily basis. Enjoy!

    Actually, we just find it sad that people of your ilk actually exist.

    I'll bet you think Ann Coulter really WAS born a girl, dont'cha?

    What am I thinking - of course you do!

    Your "moral compass" (now THERE"S a funny phrase when applied to you) would s$%t itself otherwise.

    Unit_D

  • Unit_D said...

    Actually, we just find it sad that people of your ilk actually exist.

    I'll bet you think Ann Coulter really WAS born a girl, dont'cha?

    What am I thinking - of course you do!

    Your "moral compass" (now THERE"S a funny phrase when applied to you) would s$%t itself otherwise.

    Let me assure you, the feeling is more than reciprocal.

    1buckfaninmich

  • 1buckfaninmich said...

    Glad you found it offensive. I hope it improves your psychological disposition to know that there are people like me, serving "tripe" to people like you, on a daily basis. Enjoy!

    Touche!

    Yeah, I said it.

    shalvoy

  • This post is for members of Bucknuts or All Access VIP members only. Start Free Trial

    sarasotabcg ●

  • 1buckfaninmich said...

    Let me assure you, the feeling is more than reciprocal.

    I would certainly hope so.

    You seem to be the type of person that makes folks wash their hands after encountering you.

    This is not a trait to be proud of.

    Although in Goofyville (where you have been elected President, Vice-President, and chair of the Homeowners Association) it may very well be a badge of honor.

    Unit_D

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